Hannah Stainer on Managing Mental Health and Depression (#011)

On this episode of the Pocket Mastermind Podcast we spoke to Hannah Stainer from Psykhe Coaching about her own personal experiences with mental health and depression.

Hannah very openly shares the light bulb moment when she realised something was wrong and how she has found ways to monitor and manage her mental state and mood.

Mental health matters. "It's not just you, you're not alone!"

We're incredibly grateful to Hannah for sharing her story so openly and we'd recommend checking out her upcoming online wellbeing conference here https://www.facebook.com/events/238489660898260/

You can find Hannah's podcast on on the below links:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zCmgJLRQsGlU3oRLfoDtz iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psykhe-mental-wellbeing-podcast/id1478184933

Hannah's website: https://www.psykhe.co.uk/

Pocket Mastermind website https://pocketmastermind.com

Transcript:

[00:00:26] David: [00:00:26] Hannah, welcome to the Pocket Mastermind podcast. How are you?

[00:00:29] Hannah: [00:00:29] I'm good thanks, how are you?

[00:00:31] David: [00:00:31] Very good. Thank you very much for giving up your time to come and speak to us today. Um, we're really interested to speak to you because of you. You've got background in education, psychology, but personal, but also personal experience with mental health and wellbeing and with a lot of people, you know, being in lockdown for quite some time now and uncertainty around going back to work and all of these other contributing factors.

[00:00:53] Um, I think there'd be great benefit in. Other people hearing from, from people that have been through various experiences with [00:01:00] mental health and wellbeing, and they kind of, the steps you've managed to take and to move on past that point of view. So yeah, we're really, really interested. Talk to you about this.

[00:01:09] Hannah: [00:01:09] No, I mean, I'm happy to talk about mental health all day. Um, I know we're not going to talk all day, but try and keep it. Um, but yeah, thanks for having me and really happy to be here.

[00:01:20] David: [00:01:20] Tell us a bit about your. Uh, your experience, remember how you remember when it really started or was it kind of a slow transition into, into this experience?

[00:01:30] Hannah: [00:01:30] That's quite a difficult question because I think it's something that sometimes you might have a massive life event and then. After that, you can kind of see that that's clearly when it started, but I probably now looking back from my teens, at least, had some stuff from life events to work through, but it wasn't until I finished university.

[00:01:53] And, um, I went to some mental health awareness training for a new job that I had and I honestly [00:02:00] nearly cried when they talked about depression cause I was like, Oh my God, that's me. That's me. Um, and I hadn't recognised it and I'd obviously had low mood and, um, and difficulties kind of, um. Doing things that I'd enjoyed?

[00:02:16] And obviously the markets, the depression, but I didn't know that's what it was until someone had just gone through. These are the things, I was like, Oh,

[00:02:26] David: [00:02:26] Do you remember those kind of things were, how many, how many down the list was it before you kind of thought, hang on a sec. This rings a bell.

[00:02:33] Hannah: [00:02:33] Well, probably from the beginning I was like, I'll give that to me.

[00:02:35] That's me. That's me. But things like the, not enjoying things that you previously had, the low mood, the, the feelings of, uh, kind of not mattering or not being missed, or being a burden to people, which can be quite common. Um, and then there's a lot around, I guess, about energy that either being really fast and really [00:03:00] frenetic energy or being really slow and sleeping a lot, and those changes to sleep and to appetite and those kinds of things.

[00:03:09] And, if I look back at university, I definitely had times where I struggled to get to lectures, which is probably quite common, but I would just not be able to

[00:03:20] David: [00:03:20] A Uni student that didnt manage to get to lectures. Easy where you could miss that kind of thing right, because it's like you say, it's quite common.

[00:03:32] Hannah: [00:03:32] Yeah, and I mean, I'm quite a geek, really. So I quite like learning, but I struggled to get out of bed and just watch like a box on repeat and I just didn't have the energy to do it. And, um, kind of withdrawing.

[00:03:46] From things. I did enjoy it. But I think the kind of big thing was that, um, I guess the emotional or lack of emotion there, because for me, my depression experience and it, and it will [00:04:00] vary for everyone, but is it was a real sense of being kind of numb, of not really feeling anything, just kind of feeling empty and kind of, um, so.

[00:04:10] Yes, it's low mood. And some people might have a really kind of powerful, negative emotion, possibly, or sadness, but I didn't have that. It was just kind of empty and just numb and, um, yeah. So it was just, I was just kind of going through the motions a little bit and they, um, so that was when I really recognised it.

[00:04:30] And fortunately

[00:04:32] David: [00:04:32] Do you remember how long you had that feeling for?

[00:04:36] Hannah: [00:04:36] For a long time. I think I am. Yeah. I think for, for a long time through college, I'd had, I was bullied at school, which had quite a big impact on my self esteem. And, uh, it's any now looking back, I realise how much of an impact it had and my parents went through quite a difficult divorce, which is very, uh, [00:05:00] unsettling. Um, but then I just kind of got on with, just kind of tried to get on with life. And, uh, and I always have had, um, cause I've had a few episodes now of depression. It's always been high functioning depression. Um, and so that's. I still worked. Um, well, although probably, I do remember one period of time after I'd come out of an episode that my colleagues said, I was just like a robot and I thought I was doing fine.

[00:05:28] I was like showing up and putting on that brave face or whatever. And then sleeping a lot when I got home. It really takes a lot of energy to show up and to put a mask on. So I thought I was performing well, but apparently I was just like a robot.

[00:05:44] David: [00:05:44] Its interesting how other people pick up on it, isn't it? When even, when you think you're doing a good job of hiding the hard thing to hide when you're lacking that, that inner energy that comes with it.

[00:05:56] Hannah: [00:05:56] And, and I think that is really key that inner energy, because there's lots of [00:06:00] things that you just don't have the energy to do. So, uh, the example I quite like to use is laundry. I'm quite proud look, I've got laundry behind me, shows that I've done it because actually when I was quite depressed.

[00:06:13] It's not that I don't like laundry. I mean, it's not my favorite thing, but, um, when I'm depressed, it's just so much effort. Like even trying to get your head around this thing that you, they have to do. And with depression, it could be even just having a shower, it's just, you just can't comprehend. Like, how would you do that?

[00:06:34] It's just so much energy and you just can't do it. And, um. So it is, yeah. It really about that, that energy, and that extends to the things that you'd love. The things that you enjoy, the people in your life that actually you just, you maybe don't enjoy their company in the way you normally, because, you just, you're not really feeling anything.

[00:07:00] [00:07:00] Um, it sounds really bleak doesnt it,

[00:07:03] No, but

[00:07:03] David: [00:07:03] it's true. I mean, you know, Steve and I both had various spells of you know, similar kind of experiences as to what you described from my own personal experience. And I found that you kind of procrast, like you were just saying, you know, that you end up procrastinating on all of the little things that you need to do.

[00:07:21] And then that ends up just building up and it becomes something that niggle away in the back of your mind because you've got a load of jobs that you really should have done that you haven't done, like you spend the whole weekend. So for me it was. Just get to the weekend and then I'd spend the whole weekend doing nothing.

[00:07:39] And then, because I'd done nothing come Sunday night, I knew I had a whole new week to wait until I could do something again, but I didn't do anything again the following weekend. And that went on for, I don't know. I think for me it kind of like, it was a gradual, I don't even remember it starting or ending in any way, really.

[00:07:58] I kind of remember the end more than I do [00:08:00] the, the beginning, it could have been 10 years. I honestly don't know how long.

[00:08:05] Hannah: [00:08:05] Yeah. And I think I can definitely see that I had several periods of depression where it was much more extreme. Um, and I say extreme for me, not extreme as it would be for other people, but it was only a couple of years ago. Looking back on all of that and it very cliched as I was about to turn 30 and I was like, what's going on with my life? And I realised that I had thought that I was depressed or I was fine. When I look back I was like,mmm, I wasn't really okay at all. So I had obviously these more extreme periods of depression, but the rest of the time I still wasn't really living because I still had really, I basically, I hated myself and it's kind of what I discovered and I think that had a big part.

[00:08:56] With the depression because I just kind of [00:09:00] didn't feel it was worth anything. So I kind of wouldn't go for the things I wanted to do. And then that's that kind of sense of not really living your life. And I think that all kind of feeds into it. But there was something really interesting that I noticed about a similar time when I started to actually try and do things are  supposed to be good for depression. I kind of decided I'm not okay with not being okay, so I need to do something about it. And I noticed something interesting and I had never really, thought I had anxiety, but actually when the depression started to lift, I felt anxiety because when I was depressed it was just flat. And once that went a little bit, I had ups and downs and then I got a lot of social anxiety and anxiety about stuff and I realised fear had been a big factor in my life. I had just hadn't really seen it cause they had been hidden. So that was quite interesting.

[00:10:00] [00:09:59] David: [00:09:59] That is interesting, you know, an emotion that's quite as strong as fear gets hidden by, I guess the numbness and the other thing that's more at forefront. And do you think the two were linked? Do you think there was an anxiety potentially anxiety earlier on that's kind of progressed into the depression.

[00:10:22] Hannah: [00:10:22] Yeah. And I think for me, I guess the a lot of the depression, I think is about that.

[00:10:29] Not liking myself and holding myself back and, and all of that. And I think a lot of that came from this anxiety and this fear of being judged and other people think. And, uh, so I'm a big people pleaser, or was, trying not to be so much anymore, but I definitely think they were linked in that a lot of the things where I was holding myself back was because of the anxiety but I just didn't really see that at the time. So I think it's, it's so interesting to [00:11:00] look back and then kind of go, Oh, maybe that's why I did or didn't do that thing. Yeah.

[00:11:08] David: [00:11:08] I was going to say, what do you think allowed you to be able to, you know, start to see it from that perspective? Because I think half the time, you know, when you. It's very di until you're able to see it from like almost a kind of a third party perspective, it's hard to take any steps to do anything about it. What was it that that training course, that was the first moment you kind of rare you've managed to get that perspective.

[00:11:38] Hannah: [00:11:38] So I think that was when I really recognised the depression. And then I had a course of CBT at a time. Um, so cognative behavioral therapy and, um, and that helped to a certain extent, but I still had a few periods of depression after, and I've had, um, I've taken antidepressants a couple of times. Um, [00:12:00] but I think it was, um, at this point a couple of years ago when I realised that actually, even when I wasn't depressed, I still wasn't really okay. And that I needed to work on myself. And I think depression can be kind of cyclical that you get these waves of depression and then, um, and then it lessens. And so I guess I came to this realisation in a slightly better place within the waves to be able to do something about it.

[00:12:28] Um, and so I. You know, I did a bit of research, Googled things that are good for depression. Uh, you know, the classic list and exercise is at the top, and I was like, so boring. Everyone says exercise, but I decided I'd just do it like an experiment and just try it and see, because what's the worst that would happen?

[00:12:51] Um, so I tried it, and shocker. It helped.

[00:12:57] David: [00:12:57] They were all right.

[00:12:59] Hannah: [00:12:59] Yeah. Oh [00:13:00] God. They're obviously onto something. Um, so exercise. Uh, trying to, um, comfort eating with a big thing I did when I had a low mood, which not necessarily the best, because if you're just eating rubbish. You're not giving your body what it needs, and that's still a work in progress, I'm not, not sat here as like.

[00:13:19] David: [00:13:19] I think we're all a work in progress on that one. I have to keep stuff out of the house. Otherwise I'm a vacuum for it.

[00:13:27] Hannah: [00:13:27] Yeah. Yeah. Things like sleep. Um, but I, yeah, I just kind of tried out all of these things, but I think the biggest, biggest thing was. I started to try and work on my mindset and on my relationship with myself because for me, that was like a big thing at the root of it that I wasn't happy or anywhere close to happy because I had such a negative view of myself and I just wasn't okay with myself.

[00:13:56] And so actually. To make lasting changes like the [00:14:00] exercise, even that I had to kind of flip how I felt about it. So it wasn't, and I think for exercise, for a lot of people, it's maybe punishment. Like I need to lose weight or I need to do this. I have to go to the gym. Um, and so I tried to see it as actually, I'm worth putting some effort into myself, even if I had to tell myself that at the beginning I didn't necessarily believe it.

[00:14:23] But when I tried to do it from a place of nurturing myself. It was easier to kind of commit to, and I had to do a lot. I'm still doing a lot of work on accepting myself and loving myself. And, um. This isn't something that I've said on my podcast, so public in full, but actually a big thing was K-pop sounds really silly, but I started listening to this K-pop band.

[00:14:54] Um. Called BTS who you might've heard of. And they have this album all about loving [00:15:00] yourself. And I was listening to that and then actually kind of absorbed the message that I needed to love myself. And actually it was quite a big catalyst to kind of go, Oh, I actually do need to love myself and, um, yes so, K-Pop.

[00:15:17] David: [00:15:17] It's funny where you can find the messages when you're, when suddenly you reach a point where you're open to receive some kind of message, you can find it in the most unlikely of places for sure.

[00:15:27] Hannah: [00:15:27] Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I, it was obviously just the right, um, right time to hear it. Um, and I think that's because a lot of people who will say about loving yourself, and I think that's a lovely idea. It's a big jump from, I hate myself to, I love myself. So I just worked on trying to just be okay with myself and just accept who I was, and I really thought about the people in my life who I really cared about. And I had one friend who was great [00:16:00] because she is kind of a bit like Marmite. She was a very kind of eccentric character who I could see like some people were not fan, but she was just unapologetically herself. And actually the people that loved her really loved her.

[00:16:17] And it was like, well, she's just being herself and, and it's okay and she doesn't care. That some people didn't like her, and I was like, I kind of want to be like that. You know? Actually, if I show up as myself, some people might not like it, but actually some people might really like it and so um.

[00:16:39] Steve: [00:16:39] Have you ever figured out what a trigger is? For your depression. Have you ever, now youve had many spells, do you think there is one thing that keeps cropping up each time?

[00:16:54] Hannah: [00:16:54] It's a great question, and I haven't really thought about that. Um, [00:17:00] and I guess it's because over the last couple years I've been in a better place that I haven't so much. But I think I have a bit of a track record of probably not doing what I really want to because of all this fear and anxiety. And I think sometimes it's that response to staying in a situation, whether it's career or relationship with something that I don't really want to be in, but I'm kind of in denial with myself because actually making that change feels too difficult or so I'm just in a situation that I've got that kind of internal battle of, I don't really want to be here, but I'm not gonna admit that, so I'm going to stay in.

[00:17:45] Steve: [00:17:45] So when it does kick off, do you now have a default way of dealing with it? Can you, can you now say it's, we're started again. Um, it's because I'm doing something I don't particularly want to be doing. Do you then [00:18:00] stop doing that to make yourself better or do you keep trying to find a way of having the best of both worlds all the time?

[00:18:07] Hannah: [00:18:07] I think it depends what it is. I think somethings are easier to leave or change than others.

[00:18:14] So, um, like career wise, I've got much better. And, um, as David said, I worked in education and I loved working with young people and helping them. Um, a lot of why I did so much in special education with helping them figure out who they were and their place in the world and all of that. And I loved that.

[00:18:33] But the politics of being in a school and, and all of that just wasn't good for my mental health. And before Christmas, I did a term teaching. I went back into education just part time cause I was like, that would be better for my mental health. And actually the culture of the school and the way it felt, I could just tell that this isn't the right place for me to be and I normally have [00:19:00] real issues leaving a job that's not right cause I have this wierd sense of like guilt or obligation or what will they do if I leave?

[00:19:07] They can't possibly cope, which is. It's a weird mix of you feel really insecure, but it sounds like you're being really big headed at the same time. And it really is from, I think, this insecurity of actually saying to someone, well, I don't want to work here anymore in a nice way. Um, and their reaction and whether you can handle that.

[00:19:28] Um, but I could just tell that this isn't the right place to be. And I was really proud of myself that I actually made the decision to leave. So I did a term, which was like the shortest amount of time you can do in a school and then left. Again, I loved the students. It was just, that wasn't the right environment.

[00:19:45] And so now I'm better at listening to myself and checking in with myself, and I can recognise flags, like warning flags that actually my moods taking a dip so I need to look at what it is. [00:20:00] And actually we talked about food. Junk food is a big one. So when I notice I'm having more junk food, and I think it's that when I'm feeling really drained, I don't have the energy.

[00:20:11] So I'm craving that high fat, high sugar food cause I need that energy. So when I can recognise, actually, um, I've probably gone to McDonald's too many times this week, or, you know, just chocolate rappers all over my car. Um, this is a sign that I need to look at something. Um, and I think that is a really important thing to do for yourself.

[00:20:34] To, if you can identify your triggers, which can be hard to do or your flags that something needs looking at.

[00:20:44] Steve: [00:20:44] Can you turn it around quicker, now?

[00:20:47] Hannah: [00:20:47] I think so. Yeah. Cause I think before I would just have gone into a depression and, um, and that could last a couple of months of [00:21:00] withdrawing and, um, uh, and, and I'm not very good at reaching out for help. And it's the thing that I always say to do. It's so hard to do. Um, because I didn't really tell people about it.

[00:21:14] And so now I think it'd be easier, cause I've kind of flipped and done a 180 and I would tell everyone about it. So actually it would probably be easier cause I could be like, Oh, you know how I talk about depression? Well actually I'm feeling, whereas when you don't talk about it at all. Then it feels so hard to reach out.

[00:21:35] Um, and I found, I don't know whether when you had periods of issue from the same family and it's so hard to talk to family about it.

[00:21:46] Steve: [00:21:46] Um, I, yeah, I think I'd agree with that only because, um, my, especially my mum. Um, um, is the most positive person in the whole world. [00:22:00] And so, um, how big are your problem. Its all going to be alright. And so you get frustrated with it. I used to get really frustrated with it on the phone.

[00:22:12] You know, you just don't understand. You just don't understand because everything's not going to be all right. You can't tell me everything's going to be all right because that's not how I feel. And. And so I did find it much easier to speak to other people.

[00:22:26] And the, and the reason that I speak openly about mental health is so other people do it's not really actually to help myself. Um, especially if I'm feeling all right, I'll talk about it anyway. And it's only because I want other people to know that it's all right to talk about it and at least some, like, I'm going to listen to you if you're my pal and we can discuss it or whatever. However you're feeling. Um, but it really frustrates me that, so

[00:22:52] taboo. I don't know if it is anymore, taboo. I often think, [00:23:00] well, maybe everyone else is all right. But they can't be.

[00:23:04] Hannah: [00:23:04] I think it's, people are talking about it more, which is great. I think, uh, with your, with your mum saying, Oh, it'll be all right. It's, it's a natural thing to do, isn't it? Cause you want the person to feel better. But actually then the message you're kind of getting is it's kind of diminishing how you're feeling a little bit, cause it's like you're feeling absolutely terrible or rubbish or whatever.

[00:23:26] They're like, Oh, I'll be fine. And it's, and you really just feel not understood or not seen. And that's something that's so important to, to humans to kind of be seen. And I always say that the most powerful thing. Like you said, if you don't know what to say, you can just say that again, know what to say, but you can just listen and be bad for that person and not try and fix them or interrupt or offer all these solutions because yeah, this is not helpful.

[00:23:57] And they can actually have a negative impact. But just [00:24:00] saying, do you know what I don't know what you're going through, but I am here for you. Yeah. That is so powerful. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:24:09] David: [00:24:09] It's hard, isn't it? Cause it's humans. We're fixes. We do try and fix. And it's hard when someone has that, um, has a challenge and you do want to solve the problem.

[00:24:21] Um, but it's, I think what you just said, there's really important, and. Try not to solve immediately because just the listening part, most people end up solving their own challenges with the opportunity to be heard. You know, they kind of talk. They talk themselves through the process anyway, given enough opportunity to do so.

[00:24:42] So yeah, sometimes it's just just being heard. I think. Hmm.

[00:24:46] Hannah: [00:24:46] And just by listening. And I think that's something I'm at the moment going through that process of training to be a counselor. And a lot of that is about being able to just listen and hold space because in normal [00:25:00] life we interrupt. We kind of think, Ooh, that's like the time I did whatever.

[00:25:05] Or you offer solutions. Cause that's kind of how social conversation works. Um, and actually when someone's talking about something like this. That's not really the kind of response they want. They want that space and it's something, and I, I often do this now, if I'm trying to think through something, I'll audio record myself, like in the car because then I can kind of talk through it.

[00:25:29] And then actually sometimes I find I've come to a solution just by having that space to think through it and, and so, what I would say to the kind of people, if there isn't anyone in their life that they think that they one, feel comfortable speaking to or can speak to, who will just listen. Places like the Samaritans, which it doesn't have to just be mental health.

[00:25:53] It could just be feeling lonely and want to chat. It's really helpful, [00:26:00] or therapy if you're going through a difficult time because they're trained to be able to support you in that way and to kind of. Yeah. Hold that. It's powerful feelings for you. And because I think for me with family, I had this real sense of not wanting to upset my parents or burden them or all this kind of guilt and shame around it.

[00:26:23] Um, and actually if you're seeing someone who it's kind of their job to deal with, to deal with your baggage. And it's still difficult. I open up to someone and there's not that same kind of guilt or I'm getting to upset them that there is with family and friends. I think,

[00:26:42] David: [00:26:42] Yeah, I think that's, your question. Um, a little while earlier around what our experience is, and what you just said there, I think so many people always, you're always asking people how they are or they ask you how you are. And how often does anyone actually give an [00:27:00] honest answer to that question? How are you and most, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm fine.

[00:27:04] I'm fine. And then often that's not really the case. And it's a very difficult one to yet, cause it's not often it's in passing isn't it? You're doing it well actually. And then unload. Suddenly the person got an awful lot more than they bargained for where they, they asked how you were. So, um, yeah, it's really, really difficult.

[00:27:23] And I think trying to find maybe someone like you to suggest there someone independent, um, is a very good first step and you may find that from that, that point, then you're able to open up a bit more to people that, you know, having, you know, kind of got over that first, that first step.

[00:27:42] Hannah: [00:27:42] Yeah. I think that other ways that you can, um. Help yourself to kind of think through things and express things. And I quite often will journal, so I'll just write. And it's similar to the talking out loud, just to kind of let stuff out, have a [00:28:00] rant. Um, and I have got some friends, where I might be like, I just need to have a rant. And they're like, okay.

[00:28:05] And then. They wouldn't do anything, they'll just let you rant at them for a bit. And that's if you don't have a friend you can rant to you. I would suggest finding someone cause it's quite powerful just to be able to say, I don't need anything. I just need you to listen while I just moan about stuff or let stuff out.

[00:28:21] Um, but also, art can be a really good way of expressing and processing emotions and just letting them out. Cause I think we, um, we can find it really difficult to go through the powerful emotions so, like anger or sadness or grief. And so we just try and bury them down, which is uh not the best way of dealing with them because eventually they're just gonna explode or they're going to come.

[00:28:52] And actually art can be a really good way of just channeling them or, um, and it doesn't have to be something you [00:29:00] show people for any reason. Just. Sorry, just to, to let them out and actually say this, and I've been talking about creativity for a little while on my podcast, and I've never had the time to do it.

[00:29:14] Yesterday, I spent some time, sat in the garden painting, so lovely and. Um, it was just nice to be in the moment and, and that stuff out. And it feels like it's quite a bright, colorful painting. So I guess it reflects that I'm in a better head space at the moment. So

[00:29:34] David: [00:29:34] It's nice, you know, something they use for, um, kind of returning soldiers and that kind of thing now with PTSD is art to help process a lot of the deep, um, ingrained kind of emotions and memories and that kind of thing. So there's a lot to be said for art, and it's kind of a mindfulness type activity really because you are in the moment you're doing that. You're not [00:30:00] thinking about something that's niggling away that happened before.

[00:30:03] You're not worrying about something that might happen in the future. You just distracting yourself. And I think, you know, sports can be good for that kind of thing. Um, any type, any type of activity that requires you to be present, um, I've certainly found to be quite beneficial.

[00:30:23] Hannah: [00:30:23] Yeah. Well, when I exercise, I discovered CrossFit.

[00:30:27] And the same when, when lifting a very heavy weight above your head, kind of got to be in the moment. You've gotta be in the moment, or like a handstand against the wall, like if you want to in the moment. Um, but I think that the mindfulness thing is so true because I think a lot of the things that bring us down or when we're either living in the past or the future in our head and we're worried about something that might or might not happen.

[00:30:55] Or, our interpretation of something that did happen or didn't happen because actually everything [00:31:00] that's in our head, it's just our own interpretation of it. Our own story. Which my just be stuff we've kind of made up and it's like, um, with CBT, the classic example is, you see someone and they don't say hi back to you and so automatic you're like, Oh, they're angry with me.

[00:31:18] I've upset them. No one likes me. That's just a story you've made up and actually probably more likely is they're busy. There's something going on with them, whatever. It's our own stories that are the things that, that bring us down. So actually when you can just be in the moment and just responding in the moment, I think if you're not telling yourself stories so much, you're just kind of responding and I feel much happier when I'm in the moment.

[00:31:46] And, um, yeah. Any of those practices, like you said, the. Um, the sport, arts, meditation, if that works for you. And it doesn't have to just be sitting meditation. It could be walking or sports as a form of [00:32:00] just kind of being in flow. It helps you be in the moment and it does take time. It's not a kind of quick fix, but I think that definitely helps.

[00:32:10] And I've noticed that I am much more living in the present now. And um, and I think that helps because for me, a lot of my social interactions, I was so anxious about what people thought and my head was just kind of going, now I just try and.Just be in flow. So that's kind of quiet cause I'm just responding, and people will think of me what they think of me and there's a great quote I heard from I think from Rachel Hollis who's podcaster and speaker in the U.S. And it's that other people's opinion of you is none of your business.

[00:32:51] David: [00:32:51] I like that. It's very good. Yeah.

[00:32:53] Hannah: [00:32:53] Yeah. Because it's their own story. It's shaped by their own experiences or how they're feeling on the day or whatever. [00:33:00] And it's, it's nothing to do with, you really so.

[00:33:06] David: [00:33:06] So true. I think so many people get caught up trying to, um, make people like them and, and influence how people feel about them. You could do everything under the sun and it's not going to guarantee how somebody else thinks or feels. One thing you can't do is control how anybody else thinks or feels, because to your point, a million contributing factors on any, any given single moment in time.

[00:33:31] So, you know what, they may be happy one, you know, it could have been 10 minutes later or earlier and it could have been completely different reaction to meeting you than it was at that particular single moment in time. So. I think freeing yourself from trying to influence how other people think and feel is a great first step. Certainly something Ive kind of taken onboard.

[00:33:56] Hannah: [00:33:56] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a lot easier when you've reached a point of feeling better [00:34:00] about yourself, because I think if you don't feel good about yourself, you kind of need that external validation from people. But if you can get to a point where you're like, I'm all right with who I am, I'm an okay person.

[00:34:13] Maybe you love yourself, and that's great. Maybe you're you know, I'm all right. Then actually, I think you're better able to tolerate people having a negative perception because you're like. Oh, well, I know I'm all right. So, um, and again, it's not, not in any kind of big headed way. It's just having enough self-acceptance and kind of self confidence to be like, I'm not going to let your opinion affect me.

[00:34:37] And, um, yeah,

[00:34:40] David: [00:34:40] I think that's good. And one of the other things I took from, um. Steve, Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox, and we spoke about this previously, you know, detaching. A lot of the, our anxiety or frustration comes out we, we paint a picture of how an [00:35:00] event should be or how something should be. And the fact, the world should be fair and all of these things.

[00:35:04] And. The world isn't fair because, well, depending on your definition at any given time, again, you know, it's a subjective thing, but the world technically, you know, really isn't fair. How you have decided a particular event or scenario should play out. The rest of the universe hasn't signed up to it. So there's no guarantee that it's going to happen.

[00:35:27] And I think we get ourselves attached to this is what's going to happen, or this is what should happen and this is how things should be. And you can quickly tie yourself up in knots because the chances of it all coming out the way you hoped it would or planned it would or really determined that it should have done it quite slim.

[00:35:47] Hannah: [00:35:47] Hmm. I really love, um, along with that way, he says about not having expectations in situations, and that's ,when I read, that, um, that's something that I've [00:36:00] been doing, trying to let, let go of that. And it came up on the counseling course that I'm doing actually. I think we were talking about expectations as um part of the course, and I was like, actually, I don't have any thoughts about how it's going to go.

[00:36:15] I'm just in the moment, see what happens, because yeah, I'm a lot happier when I just, I don't bring too much of that into a situation and I can just, yeah, go with the flow a little bit. And that's taken time to get to that point. But. Yeah, absolutely. If you can just try and go with it. Let go of those expectations,

[00:36:39] David: [00:36:39] It does take a bit of practice for sure.

[00:36:43] The good news is there's lots of opportunity I've found every single day to practice it because there's always some kind of scenario that will lead to something else, and then you think, well, what's going to be the outcome of that? A great example is this weekend, you know, leading up to seven [00:37:00] o'clock yesterday.

[00:37:01] The amount of speculation over what was going to be said. You might as well just wait for to see what's going to be said. Otherwise, you'd tie yourself up in knots for two weeks, trying to figure out what the various permutations are likely to be, and you've still got a much higher chance of not working it out anyway, and you still have to wait to find out for sure.

[00:37:20] So you must free up your own mental space, uh, in the meantime and wait, and if it's, if it, if, if it's a scenario where it's out of your control. Is, I would suggest try and park it and think about and get back to doing something that's in the moment so that you're not dwelling because it's futile to not think of something.

[00:37:41] By definition you're going to be thinking of it. So you kind of, I dont  remember who it was that someone said, when you worry about something like describe a tree, cause you know you can't be describing a tree and not thinking about it. You know, and try not to think about something else at the same time.

[00:37:58] Hannah: [00:37:58] I think there's something, [00:38:00] um, your life is uncertain for ways it's uncertain, but we'd like to try and feel like we're in control.

[00:38:07] And I think with everything that's happening at the moment is suddenly just made it really obvious to people. Life's uncertain, and we're not a fan of that. Um, so we want to know what's going to happen, but actually if you can just be in, in the flow, it's kind of like just riding a wave. That you're just kind of responding to what happens.

[00:38:26] So you're not kind of clinging to certainty, or control in the same way. So I think when you can be more present, you can deal with uncertainty more because you're just responding to everything that comes up. And I think it is that kind of being too much in the expectations and how things should be.

[00:38:44] Then the uncertainty just kind of throws us. So we want the answers.

[00:38:49] David: [00:38:49] It's true. Yeah, it's true. I think, you know, been able to take that step back and view how you're thinking and feeling in a situation. And being able to assess is the [00:39:00] one thing that kind of separates us as humans from the other animals is be as have being able to actually, you know, perceive our own existence.

[00:39:09] Um, and so it's being able to develop that, those tools. Um, through, you know, meditation or any other kind of mindfulness techniques. Like you say, the can be, um, sport or art or those kinds of things I think makes, makes such a big difference. Any other advice you'd give to some, somebody who maybe is listening to this and thinking a bit like you did when you were on that course?

[00:39:34] Aha. I've, some of these things resonate with me. What would you say, what would you suggest to anyone in that position?

[00:39:42] Hannah: [00:39:42] Yeah. So I think there is a lot more information out there now that you can go to, and I tend to refer people to Mind. Their website has a lot of information or Rethink Mental illness somewhere like that if you're trying to figure out, is this explaining my experience?

[00:39:59] And [00:40:00] um, and they also have tips and advice on there. Um, I would absolutely recommend talking to someone. If you can, or finding a way to try and process what's going on for you. Um, and I think finding something like we can say about the kind of mindfulness or the exercise, there is a reason that these things keep coming up as suggestions that exercise the mindfulness.

[00:40:26] Because. They do actually help, but it's not a one size fits all thing. So some people love running and it helps. I'm not a runner, it's not for me. Um, so trying different things. Not just trying one thing once and then going, Oh, that didn't help. It's really, it's like a trial and error approach to find the thing that works for you.

[00:40:49] And it might be running or a seated meditation type thing, it might look different. Um, so just kind of trying, and I think the biggest thing is [00:41:00] knowing that. It's, it's not just you, you're not alone. And I think there's still a lot of shame around mental illness. Um, there's nothing that's like inherently wrong with you.

[00:41:15] It's just something that can happen in the same way a physical part of your body can have issues at times, and I think that can really help to kind of separate from that feeling of, of shame that actually there are other people who kind of get it, or who've been through it. Um, and that is kind of okay.

[00:41:38] It's quite normal actually to um to go through it. And I think that's a really powerful reminder because when you're in it, you just kind of feel so alone and sometimes, and then no one knows what you're going through or understands. And how am I going to get out with it? So, um, yeah, just remember that actually. [00:42:00] That's just your mind telling you that. And really other people have been through and you're not alone, and that there is help and support out there.

[00:42:07] David: [00:42:07] I think that's great advice. I think, um, definitely go and speak to speak to somebody. Just find somebody to speak to. Um, and don't be ashamed because. I think pretty much everybody will go through some kind of episode of some description in their life.

[00:42:25] I think it's impossible not to, there's so many external pressures. There's so many internal pressures that at some point you're not going to feel great either about yourself or about the situation that you're in. And it's important to find somebody to talk to and, and it, you know, we, we laugh about our mother saying everything will be okay.

[00:42:48] It will, you just might not want to hear that as the first thing that you hear. But, um, it's good to know that you can come through and, uh, but you do need to speak to people.

[00:42:59] Hannah: [00:42:59] And you might find [00:43:00] that when you reach out to someone and say, this is how I'm feeling. That they're feeling something similar or that they can relate to it.

[00:43:07] Um, I think part of depression, we almost become really like, um, self-centred because it's just you in your own little world and actually when you reach out, you might be surprised who has been through something similar.

[00:43:22] David: [00:43:22] That's great. It's been really good to talk to you. And you mentioned your podcast earlier.

[00:43:27] Let everybody know where they can find you. If they want to hear a bit more, that'd be great.

[00:43:32] Hannah: [00:43:32] Yeah, so my podcast. It's on iTunes and Spotify, and it's called the Psykhe mental wellbeing podcast. And it's Psykhe with a K rather than a C. Um, just because I'm awkward and it's the Greek goddess of like the soul and the spirit, and it's the root of the word psychology.

[00:43:49] And I. I quite liked that. And everything is symbolised. So it's an iTunes and Spotify, and we dive into mental wellbeing generally, but we also, [00:44:00] do episodes on specific mental illness experiences that people have gone through. So.

[00:44:06] David: [00:44:06] Brilliant, well, we'll make sure there's links to your podcast when this goes live. Uh, and thank you very much for giving up your time to come and speak to us. It's been really interesting and. Uh, hopefully we'll speak again in the not too distant future.

[00:44:20] Hannah: [00:44:20] Yeah. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

[00:44:22] David: [00:44:22] Oh, you're welcome. Hannah.