Pocket Mastermind
Nic Marks on Measuring Happiness in the Workplace (#012)

Nic Marks on Measuring Happiness in the Workplace (#012)

May 27, 2020

On this episode of the Pocket Mastermind Podcast I spoke with happiness expert, statistician, TED speaker and CEO of Friday Pulse, Nic Marks to learn about how happiness is measured and the impact COVID-19 has had on our wellbeing.

Nic shared is fascinating career journey which includes statistician working in a think tank advising both the Blair and Cameron governments as well as some time advising the Kingdom of Bhutan, a spell as a part time therapist inspired by his mother, a brief meeting with the Dalai Lama, a successful TED talk and now the founder and CEO of Friday Pulse where he and the team work with organisations to measure happiness and wellbeing in the work-place.

"Happiness is a serious business!"

You can find out more about Nic and Friday Pulse at https://www.fridaypulse.com

Visit the Pocket Mastermind website at https:www.pocketmastermind.com

Hannah Stainer on Managing Mental Health and Depression (#011)

Hannah Stainer on Managing Mental Health and Depression (#011)

May 20, 2020

On this episode of the Pocket Mastermind Podcast we spoke to Hannah Stainer from Psykhe Coaching about her own personal experiences with mental health and depression.

Hannah very openly shares the light bulb moment when she realised something was wrong and how she has found ways to monitor and manage her mental state and mood.

Mental health matters. "It's not just you, you're not alone!"

We're incredibly grateful to Hannah for sharing her story so openly and we'd recommend checking out her upcoming online wellbeing conference here https://www.facebook.com/events/238489660898260/

You can find Hannah's podcast on on the below links:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zCmgJLRQsGlU3oRLfoDtz iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/psykhe-mental-wellbeing-podcast/id1478184933

Hannah's website: https://www.psykhe.co.uk/

Pocket Mastermind website https://pocketmastermind.com


[00:00:26] David: [00:00:26] Hannah, welcome to the Pocket Mastermind podcast. How are you?

[00:00:29] Hannah: [00:00:29] I'm good thanks, how are you?

[00:00:31] David: [00:00:31] Very good. Thank you very much for giving up your time to come and speak to us today. Um, we're really interested to speak to you because of you. You've got background in education, psychology, but personal, but also personal experience with mental health and wellbeing and with a lot of people, you know, being in lockdown for quite some time now and uncertainty around going back to work and all of these other contributing factors.

[00:00:53] Um, I think there'd be great benefit in. Other people hearing from, from people that have been through various experiences with [00:01:00] mental health and wellbeing, and they kind of, the steps you've managed to take and to move on past that point of view. So yeah, we're really, really interested. Talk to you about this.

[00:01:09] Hannah: [00:01:09] No, I mean, I'm happy to talk about mental health all day. Um, I know we're not going to talk all day, but try and keep it. Um, but yeah, thanks for having me and really happy to be here.

[00:01:20] David: [00:01:20] Tell us a bit about your. Uh, your experience, remember how you remember when it really started or was it kind of a slow transition into, into this experience?

[00:01:30] Hannah: [00:01:30] That's quite a difficult question because I think it's something that sometimes you might have a massive life event and then. After that, you can kind of see that that's clearly when it started, but I probably now looking back from my teens, at least, had some stuff from life events to work through, but it wasn't until I finished university.

[00:01:53] And, um, I went to some mental health awareness training for a new job that I had and I honestly [00:02:00] nearly cried when they talked about depression cause I was like, Oh my God, that's me. That's me. Um, and I hadn't recognised it and I'd obviously had low mood and, um, and difficulties kind of, um. Doing things that I'd enjoyed?

[00:02:16] And obviously the markets, the depression, but I didn't know that's what it was until someone had just gone through. These are the things, I was like, Oh,

[00:02:26] David: [00:02:26] Do you remember those kind of things were, how many, how many down the list was it before you kind of thought, hang on a sec. This rings a bell.

[00:02:33] Hannah: [00:02:33] Well, probably from the beginning I was like, I'll give that to me.

[00:02:35] That's me. That's me. But things like the, not enjoying things that you previously had, the low mood, the, the feelings of, uh, kind of not mattering or not being missed, or being a burden to people, which can be quite common. Um, and then there's a lot around, I guess, about energy that either being really fast and really [00:03:00] frenetic energy or being really slow and sleeping a lot, and those changes to sleep and to appetite and those kinds of things.

[00:03:09] And, if I look back at university, I definitely had times where I struggled to get to lectures, which is probably quite common, but I would just not be able to

[00:03:20] David: [00:03:20] A Uni student that didnt manage to get to lectures. Easy where you could miss that kind of thing right, because it's like you say, it's quite common.

[00:03:32] Hannah: [00:03:32] Yeah, and I mean, I'm quite a geek, really. So I quite like learning, but I struggled to get out of bed and just watch like a box on repeat and I just didn't have the energy to do it. And, um, kind of withdrawing.

[00:03:46] From things. I did enjoy it. But I think the kind of big thing was that, um, I guess the emotional or lack of emotion there, because for me, my depression experience and it, and it will [00:04:00] vary for everyone, but is it was a real sense of being kind of numb, of not really feeling anything, just kind of feeling empty and kind of, um, so.

[00:04:10] Yes, it's low mood. And some people might have a really kind of powerful, negative emotion, possibly, or sadness, but I didn't have that. It was just kind of empty and just numb and, um, yeah. So it was just, I was just kind of going through the motions a little bit and they, um, so that was when I really recognised it.

[00:04:30] And fortunately

[00:04:32] David: [00:04:32] Do you remember how long you had that feeling for?

[00:04:36] Hannah: [00:04:36] For a long time. I think I am. Yeah. I think for, for a long time through college, I'd had, I was bullied at school, which had quite a big impact on my self esteem. And, uh, it's any now looking back, I realise how much of an impact it had and my parents went through quite a difficult divorce, which is very, uh, [00:05:00] unsettling. Um, but then I just kind of got on with, just kind of tried to get on with life. And, uh, and I always have had, um, cause I've had a few episodes now of depression. It's always been high functioning depression. Um, and so that's. I still worked. Um, well, although probably, I do remember one period of time after I'd come out of an episode that my colleagues said, I was just like a robot and I thought I was doing fine.

[00:05:28] I was like showing up and putting on that brave face or whatever. And then sleeping a lot when I got home. It really takes a lot of energy to show up and to put a mask on. So I thought I was performing well, but apparently I was just like a robot.

[00:05:44] David: [00:05:44] Its interesting how other people pick up on it, isn't it? When even, when you think you're doing a good job of hiding the hard thing to hide when you're lacking that, that inner energy that comes with it.

[00:05:56] Hannah: [00:05:56] And, and I think that is really key that inner energy, because there's lots of [00:06:00] things that you just don't have the energy to do. So, uh, the example I quite like to use is laundry. I'm quite proud look, I've got laundry behind me, shows that I've done it because actually when I was quite depressed.

[00:06:13] It's not that I don't like laundry. I mean, it's not my favorite thing, but, um, when I'm depressed, it's just so much effort. Like even trying to get your head around this thing that you, they have to do. And with depression, it could be even just having a shower, it's just, you just can't comprehend. Like, how would you do that?

[00:06:34] It's just so much energy and you just can't do it. And, um. So it is, yeah. It really about that, that energy, and that extends to the things that you'd love. The things that you enjoy, the people in your life that actually you just, you maybe don't enjoy their company in the way you normally, because, you just, you're not really feeling anything.

[00:07:00] [00:07:00] Um, it sounds really bleak doesnt it,

[00:07:03] No, but

[00:07:03] David: [00:07:03] it's true. I mean, you know, Steve and I both had various spells of you know, similar kind of experiences as to what you described from my own personal experience. And I found that you kind of procrast, like you were just saying, you know, that you end up procrastinating on all of the little things that you need to do.

[00:07:21] And then that ends up just building up and it becomes something that niggle away in the back of your mind because you've got a load of jobs that you really should have done that you haven't done, like you spend the whole weekend. So for me it was. Just get to the weekend and then I'd spend the whole weekend doing nothing.

[00:07:39] And then, because I'd done nothing come Sunday night, I knew I had a whole new week to wait until I could do something again, but I didn't do anything again the following weekend. And that went on for, I don't know. I think for me it kind of like, it was a gradual, I don't even remember it starting or ending in any way, really.

[00:07:58] I kind of remember the end more than I do [00:08:00] the, the beginning, it could have been 10 years. I honestly don't know how long.

[00:08:05] Hannah: [00:08:05] Yeah. And I think I can definitely see that I had several periods of depression where it was much more extreme. Um, and I say extreme for me, not extreme as it would be for other people, but it was only a couple of years ago. Looking back on all of that and it very cliched as I was about to turn 30 and I was like, what's going on with my life? And I realised that I had thought that I was depressed or I was fine. When I look back I was like,mmm, I wasn't really okay at all. So I had obviously these more extreme periods of depression, but the rest of the time I still wasn't really living because I still had really, I basically, I hated myself and it's kind of what I discovered and I think that had a big part.

[00:08:56] With the depression because I just kind of [00:09:00] didn't feel it was worth anything. So I kind of wouldn't go for the things I wanted to do. And then that's that kind of sense of not really living your life. And I think that all kind of feeds into it. But there was something really interesting that I noticed about a similar time when I started to actually try and do things are  supposed to be good for depression. I kind of decided I'm not okay with not being okay, so I need to do something about it. And I noticed something interesting and I had never really, thought I had anxiety, but actually when the depression started to lift, I felt anxiety because when I was depressed it was just flat. And once that went a little bit, I had ups and downs and then I got a lot of social anxiety and anxiety about stuff and I realised fear had been a big factor in my life. I had just hadn't really seen it cause they had been hidden. So that was quite interesting.

[00:10:00] [00:09:59] David: [00:09:59] That is interesting, you know, an emotion that's quite as strong as fear gets hidden by, I guess the numbness and the other thing that's more at forefront. And do you think the two were linked? Do you think there was an anxiety potentially anxiety earlier on that's kind of progressed into the depression.

[00:10:22] Hannah: [00:10:22] Yeah. And I think for me, I guess the a lot of the depression, I think is about that.

[00:10:29] Not liking myself and holding myself back and, and all of that. And I think a lot of that came from this anxiety and this fear of being judged and other people think. And, uh, so I'm a big people pleaser, or was, trying not to be so much anymore, but I definitely think they were linked in that a lot of the things where I was holding myself back was because of the anxiety but I just didn't really see that at the time. So I think it's, it's so interesting to [00:11:00] look back and then kind of go, Oh, maybe that's why I did or didn't do that thing. Yeah.

[00:11:08] David: [00:11:08] I was going to say, what do you think allowed you to be able to, you know, start to see it from that perspective? Because I think half the time, you know, when you. It's very di until you're able to see it from like almost a kind of a third party perspective, it's hard to take any steps to do anything about it. What was it that that training course, that was the first moment you kind of rare you've managed to get that perspective.

[00:11:38] Hannah: [00:11:38] So I think that was when I really recognised the depression. And then I had a course of CBT at a time. Um, so cognative behavioral therapy and, um, and that helped to a certain extent, but I still had a few periods of depression after, and I've had, um, I've taken antidepressants a couple of times. Um, [00:12:00] but I think it was, um, at this point a couple of years ago when I realised that actually, even when I wasn't depressed, I still wasn't really okay. And that I needed to work on myself. And I think depression can be kind of cyclical that you get these waves of depression and then, um, and then it lessens. And so I guess I came to this realisation in a slightly better place within the waves to be able to do something about it.

[00:12:28] Um, and so I. You know, I did a bit of research, Googled things that are good for depression. Uh, you know, the classic list and exercise is at the top, and I was like, so boring. Everyone says exercise, but I decided I'd just do it like an experiment and just try it and see, because what's the worst that would happen?

[00:12:51] Um, so I tried it, and shocker. It helped.

[00:12:57] David: [00:12:57] They were all right.

[00:12:59] Hannah: [00:12:59] Yeah. Oh [00:13:00] God. They're obviously onto something. Um, so exercise. Uh, trying to, um, comfort eating with a big thing I did when I had a low mood, which not necessarily the best, because if you're just eating rubbish. You're not giving your body what it needs, and that's still a work in progress, I'm not, not sat here as like.

[00:13:19] David: [00:13:19] I think we're all a work in progress on that one. I have to keep stuff out of the house. Otherwise I'm a vacuum for it.

[00:13:27] Hannah: [00:13:27] Yeah. Yeah. Things like sleep. Um, but I, yeah, I just kind of tried out all of these things, but I think the biggest, biggest thing was. I started to try and work on my mindset and on my relationship with myself because for me, that was like a big thing at the root of it that I wasn't happy or anywhere close to happy because I had such a negative view of myself and I just wasn't okay with myself.

[00:13:56] And so actually. To make lasting changes like the [00:14:00] exercise, even that I had to kind of flip how I felt about it. So it wasn't, and I think for exercise, for a lot of people, it's maybe punishment. Like I need to lose weight or I need to do this. I have to go to the gym. Um, and so I tried to see it as actually, I'm worth putting some effort into myself, even if I had to tell myself that at the beginning I didn't necessarily believe it.

[00:14:23] But when I tried to do it from a place of nurturing myself. It was easier to kind of commit to, and I had to do a lot. I'm still doing a lot of work on accepting myself and loving myself. And, um. This isn't something that I've said on my podcast, so public in full, but actually a big thing was K-pop sounds really silly, but I started listening to this K-pop band.

[00:14:54] Um. Called BTS who you might've heard of. And they have this album all about loving [00:15:00] yourself. And I was listening to that and then actually kind of absorbed the message that I needed to love myself. And actually it was quite a big catalyst to kind of go, Oh, I actually do need to love myself and, um, yes so, K-Pop.

[00:15:17] David: [00:15:17] It's funny where you can find the messages when you're, when suddenly you reach a point where you're open to receive some kind of message, you can find it in the most unlikely of places for sure.

[00:15:27] Hannah: [00:15:27] Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I, it was obviously just the right, um, right time to hear it. Um, and I think that's because a lot of people who will say about loving yourself, and I think that's a lovely idea. It's a big jump from, I hate myself to, I love myself. So I just worked on trying to just be okay with myself and just accept who I was, and I really thought about the people in my life who I really cared about. And I had one friend who was great [00:16:00] because she is kind of a bit like Marmite. She was a very kind of eccentric character who I could see like some people were not fan, but she was just unapologetically herself. And actually the people that loved her really loved her.

[00:16:17] And it was like, well, she's just being herself and, and it's okay and she doesn't care. That some people didn't like her, and I was like, I kind of want to be like that. You know? Actually, if I show up as myself, some people might not like it, but actually some people might really like it and so um.

[00:16:39] Steve: [00:16:39] Have you ever figured out what a trigger is? For your depression. Have you ever, now youve had many spells, do you think there is one thing that keeps cropping up each time?

[00:16:54] Hannah: [00:16:54] It's a great question, and I haven't really thought about that. Um, [00:17:00] and I guess it's because over the last couple years I've been in a better place that I haven't so much. But I think I have a bit of a track record of probably not doing what I really want to because of all this fear and anxiety. And I think sometimes it's that response to staying in a situation, whether it's career or relationship with something that I don't really want to be in, but I'm kind of in denial with myself because actually making that change feels too difficult or so I'm just in a situation that I've got that kind of internal battle of, I don't really want to be here, but I'm not gonna admit that, so I'm going to stay in.

[00:17:45] Steve: [00:17:45] So when it does kick off, do you now have a default way of dealing with it? Can you, can you now say it's, we're started again. Um, it's because I'm doing something I don't particularly want to be doing. Do you then [00:18:00] stop doing that to make yourself better or do you keep trying to find a way of having the best of both worlds all the time?

[00:18:07] Hannah: [00:18:07] I think it depends what it is. I think somethings are easier to leave or change than others.

[00:18:14] So, um, like career wise, I've got much better. And, um, as David said, I worked in education and I loved working with young people and helping them. Um, a lot of why I did so much in special education with helping them figure out who they were and their place in the world and all of that. And I loved that.

[00:18:33] But the politics of being in a school and, and all of that just wasn't good for my mental health. And before Christmas, I did a term teaching. I went back into education just part time cause I was like, that would be better for my mental health. And actually the culture of the school and the way it felt, I could just tell that this isn't the right place for me to be and I normally have [00:19:00] real issues leaving a job that's not right cause I have this wierd sense of like guilt or obligation or what will they do if I leave?

[00:19:07] They can't possibly cope, which is. It's a weird mix of you feel really insecure, but it sounds like you're being really big headed at the same time. And it really is from, I think, this insecurity of actually saying to someone, well, I don't want to work here anymore in a nice way. Um, and their reaction and whether you can handle that.

[00:19:28] Um, but I could just tell that this isn't the right place to be. And I was really proud of myself that I actually made the decision to leave. So I did a term, which was like the shortest amount of time you can do in a school and then left. Again, I loved the students. It was just, that wasn't the right environment.

[00:19:45] And so now I'm better at listening to myself and checking in with myself, and I can recognise flags, like warning flags that actually my moods taking a dip so I need to look at what it is. [00:20:00] And actually we talked about food. Junk food is a big one. So when I notice I'm having more junk food, and I think it's that when I'm feeling really drained, I don't have the energy.

[00:20:11] So I'm craving that high fat, high sugar food cause I need that energy. So when I can recognise, actually, um, I've probably gone to McDonald's too many times this week, or, you know, just chocolate rappers all over my car. Um, this is a sign that I need to look at something. Um, and I think that is a really important thing to do for yourself.

[00:20:34] To, if you can identify your triggers, which can be hard to do or your flags that something needs looking at.

[00:20:44] Steve: [00:20:44] Can you turn it around quicker, now?

[00:20:47] Hannah: [00:20:47] I think so. Yeah. Cause I think before I would just have gone into a depression and, um, and that could last a couple of months of [00:21:00] withdrawing and, um, uh, and, and I'm not very good at reaching out for help. And it's the thing that I always say to do. It's so hard to do. Um, because I didn't really tell people about it.

[00:21:14] And so now I think it'd be easier, cause I've kind of flipped and done a 180 and I would tell everyone about it. So actually it would probably be easier cause I could be like, Oh, you know how I talk about depression? Well actually I'm feeling, whereas when you don't talk about it at all. Then it feels so hard to reach out.

[00:21:35] Um, and I found, I don't know whether when you had periods of issue from the same family and it's so hard to talk to family about it.

[00:21:46] Steve: [00:21:46] Um, I, yeah, I think I'd agree with that only because, um, my, especially my mum. Um, um, is the most positive person in the whole world. [00:22:00] And so, um, how big are your problem. Its all going to be alright. And so you get frustrated with it. I used to get really frustrated with it on the phone.

[00:22:12] You know, you just don't understand. You just don't understand because everything's not going to be all right. You can't tell me everything's going to be all right because that's not how I feel. And. And so I did find it much easier to speak to other people.

[00:22:26] And the, and the reason that I speak openly about mental health is so other people do it's not really actually to help myself. Um, especially if I'm feeling all right, I'll talk about it anyway. And it's only because I want other people to know that it's all right to talk about it and at least some, like, I'm going to listen to you if you're my pal and we can discuss it or whatever. However you're feeling. Um, but it really frustrates me that, so

[00:22:52] taboo. I don't know if it is anymore, taboo. I often think, [00:23:00] well, maybe everyone else is all right. But they can't be.

[00:23:04] Hannah: [00:23:04] I think it's, people are talking about it more, which is great. I think, uh, with your, with your mum saying, Oh, it'll be all right. It's, it's a natural thing to do, isn't it? Cause you want the person to feel better. But actually then the message you're kind of getting is it's kind of diminishing how you're feeling a little bit, cause it's like you're feeling absolutely terrible or rubbish or whatever.

[00:23:26] They're like, Oh, I'll be fine. And it's, and you really just feel not understood or not seen. And that's something that's so important to, to humans to kind of be seen. And I always say that the most powerful thing. Like you said, if you don't know what to say, you can just say that again, know what to say, but you can just listen and be bad for that person and not try and fix them or interrupt or offer all these solutions because yeah, this is not helpful.

[00:23:57] And they can actually have a negative impact. But just [00:24:00] saying, do you know what I don't know what you're going through, but I am here for you. Yeah. That is so powerful. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:24:09] David: [00:24:09] It's hard, isn't it? Cause it's humans. We're fixes. We do try and fix. And it's hard when someone has that, um, has a challenge and you do want to solve the problem.

[00:24:21] Um, but it's, I think what you just said, there's really important, and. Try not to solve immediately because just the listening part, most people end up solving their own challenges with the opportunity to be heard. You know, they kind of talk. They talk themselves through the process anyway, given enough opportunity to do so.

[00:24:42] So yeah, sometimes it's just just being heard. I think. Hmm.

[00:24:46] Hannah: [00:24:46] And just by listening. And I think that's something I'm at the moment going through that process of training to be a counselor. And a lot of that is about being able to just listen and hold space because in normal [00:25:00] life we interrupt. We kind of think, Ooh, that's like the time I did whatever.

[00:25:05] Or you offer solutions. Cause that's kind of how social conversation works. Um, and actually when someone's talking about something like this. That's not really the kind of response they want. They want that space and it's something, and I, I often do this now, if I'm trying to think through something, I'll audio record myself, like in the car because then I can kind of talk through it.

[00:25:29] And then actually sometimes I find I've come to a solution just by having that space to think through it and, and so, what I would say to the kind of people, if there isn't anyone in their life that they think that they one, feel comfortable speaking to or can speak to, who will just listen. Places like the Samaritans, which it doesn't have to just be mental health.

[00:25:53] It could just be feeling lonely and want to chat. It's really helpful, [00:26:00] or therapy if you're going through a difficult time because they're trained to be able to support you in that way and to kind of. Yeah. Hold that. It's powerful feelings for you. And because I think for me with family, I had this real sense of not wanting to upset my parents or burden them or all this kind of guilt and shame around it.

[00:26:23] Um, and actually if you're seeing someone who it's kind of their job to deal with, to deal with your baggage. And it's still difficult. I open up to someone and there's not that same kind of guilt or I'm getting to upset them that there is with family and friends. I think,

[00:26:42] David: [00:26:42] Yeah, I think that's, your question. Um, a little while earlier around what our experience is, and what you just said there, I think so many people always, you're always asking people how they are or they ask you how you are. And how often does anyone actually give an [00:27:00] honest answer to that question? How are you and most, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm fine.

[00:27:04] I'm fine. And then often that's not really the case. And it's a very difficult one to yet, cause it's not often it's in passing isn't it? You're doing it well actually. And then unload. Suddenly the person got an awful lot more than they bargained for where they, they asked how you were. So, um, yeah, it's really, really difficult.

[00:27:23] And I think trying to find maybe someone like you to suggest there someone independent, um, is a very good first step and you may find that from that, that point, then you're able to open up a bit more to people that, you know, having, you know, kind of got over that first, that first step.

[00:27:42] Hannah: [00:27:42] Yeah. I think that other ways that you can, um. Help yourself to kind of think through things and express things. And I quite often will journal, so I'll just write. And it's similar to the talking out loud, just to kind of let stuff out, have a [00:28:00] rant. Um, and I have got some friends, where I might be like, I just need to have a rant. And they're like, okay.

[00:28:05] And then. They wouldn't do anything, they'll just let you rant at them for a bit. And that's if you don't have a friend you can rant to you. I would suggest finding someone cause it's quite powerful just to be able to say, I don't need anything. I just need you to listen while I just moan about stuff or let stuff out.

[00:28:21] Um, but also, art can be a really good way of expressing and processing emotions and just letting them out. Cause I think we, um, we can find it really difficult to go through the powerful emotions so, like anger or sadness or grief. And so we just try and bury them down, which is uh not the best way of dealing with them because eventually they're just gonna explode or they're going to come.

[00:28:52] And actually art can be a really good way of just channeling them or, um, and it doesn't have to be something you [00:29:00] show people for any reason. Just. Sorry, just to, to let them out and actually say this, and I've been talking about creativity for a little while on my podcast, and I've never had the time to do it.

[00:29:14] Yesterday, I spent some time, sat in the garden painting, so lovely and. Um, it was just nice to be in the moment and, and that stuff out. And it feels like it's quite a bright, colorful painting. So I guess it reflects that I'm in a better head space at the moment. So

[00:29:34] David: [00:29:34] It's nice, you know, something they use for, um, kind of returning soldiers and that kind of thing now with PTSD is art to help process a lot of the deep, um, ingrained kind of emotions and memories and that kind of thing. So there's a lot to be said for art, and it's kind of a mindfulness type activity really because you are in the moment you're doing that. You're not [00:30:00] thinking about something that's niggling away that happened before.

[00:30:03] You're not worrying about something that might happen in the future. You just distracting yourself. And I think, you know, sports can be good for that kind of thing. Um, any type, any type of activity that requires you to be present, um, I've certainly found to be quite beneficial.

[00:30:23] Hannah: [00:30:23] Yeah. Well, when I exercise, I discovered CrossFit.

[00:30:27] And the same when, when lifting a very heavy weight above your head, kind of got to be in the moment. You've gotta be in the moment, or like a handstand against the wall, like if you want to in the moment. Um, but I think that the mindfulness thing is so true because I think a lot of the things that bring us down or when we're either living in the past or the future in our head and we're worried about something that might or might not happen.

[00:30:55] Or, our interpretation of something that did happen or didn't happen because actually everything [00:31:00] that's in our head, it's just our own interpretation of it. Our own story. Which my just be stuff we've kind of made up and it's like, um, with CBT, the classic example is, you see someone and they don't say hi back to you and so automatic you're like, Oh, they're angry with me.

[00:31:18] I've upset them. No one likes me. That's just a story you've made up and actually probably more likely is they're busy. There's something going on with them, whatever. It's our own stories that are the things that, that bring us down. So actually when you can just be in the moment and just responding in the moment, I think if you're not telling yourself stories so much, you're just kind of responding and I feel much happier when I'm in the moment.

[00:31:46] And, um, yeah. Any of those practices, like you said, the. Um, the sport, arts, meditation, if that works for you. And it doesn't have to just be sitting meditation. It could be walking or sports as a form of [00:32:00] just kind of being in flow. It helps you be in the moment and it does take time. It's not a kind of quick fix, but I think that definitely helps.

[00:32:10] And I've noticed that I am much more living in the present now. And um, and I think that helps because for me, a lot of my social interactions, I was so anxious about what people thought and my head was just kind of going, now I just try and.Just be in flow. So that's kind of quiet cause I'm just responding, and people will think of me what they think of me and there's a great quote I heard from I think from Rachel Hollis who's podcaster and speaker in the U.S. And it's that other people's opinion of you is none of your business.

[00:32:51] David: [00:32:51] I like that. It's very good. Yeah.

[00:32:53] Hannah: [00:32:53] Yeah. Because it's their own story. It's shaped by their own experiences or how they're feeling on the day or whatever. [00:33:00] And it's, it's nothing to do with, you really so.

[00:33:06] David: [00:33:06] So true. I think so many people get caught up trying to, um, make people like them and, and influence how people feel about them. You could do everything under the sun and it's not going to guarantee how somebody else thinks or feels. One thing you can't do is control how anybody else thinks or feels, because to your point, a million contributing factors on any, any given single moment in time.

[00:33:31] So, you know what, they may be happy one, you know, it could have been 10 minutes later or earlier and it could have been completely different reaction to meeting you than it was at that particular single moment in time. So. I think freeing yourself from trying to influence how other people think and feel is a great first step. Certainly something Ive kind of taken onboard.

[00:33:56] Hannah: [00:33:56] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a lot easier when you've reached a point of feeling better [00:34:00] about yourself, because I think if you don't feel good about yourself, you kind of need that external validation from people. But if you can get to a point where you're like, I'm all right with who I am, I'm an okay person.

[00:34:13] Maybe you love yourself, and that's great. Maybe you're you know, I'm all right. Then actually, I think you're better able to tolerate people having a negative perception because you're like. Oh, well, I know I'm all right. So, um, and again, it's not, not in any kind of big headed way. It's just having enough self-acceptance and kind of self confidence to be like, I'm not going to let your opinion affect me.

[00:34:37] And, um, yeah,

[00:34:40] David: [00:34:40] I think that's good. And one of the other things I took from, um. Steve, Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox, and we spoke about this previously, you know, detaching. A lot of the, our anxiety or frustration comes out we, we paint a picture of how an [00:35:00] event should be or how something should be. And the fact, the world should be fair and all of these things.

[00:35:04] And. The world isn't fair because, well, depending on your definition at any given time, again, you know, it's a subjective thing, but the world technically, you know, really isn't fair. How you have decided a particular event or scenario should play out. The rest of the universe hasn't signed up to it. So there's no guarantee that it's going to happen.

[00:35:27] And I think we get ourselves attached to this is what's going to happen, or this is what should happen and this is how things should be. And you can quickly tie yourself up in knots because the chances of it all coming out the way you hoped it would or planned it would or really determined that it should have done it quite slim.

[00:35:47] Hannah: [00:35:47] Hmm. I really love, um, along with that way, he says about not having expectations in situations, and that's ,when I read, that, um, that's something that I've [00:36:00] been doing, trying to let, let go of that. And it came up on the counseling course that I'm doing actually. I think we were talking about expectations as um part of the course, and I was like, actually, I don't have any thoughts about how it's going to go.

[00:36:15] I'm just in the moment, see what happens, because yeah, I'm a lot happier when I just, I don't bring too much of that into a situation and I can just, yeah, go with the flow a little bit. And that's taken time to get to that point. But. Yeah, absolutely. If you can just try and go with it. Let go of those expectations,

[00:36:39] David: [00:36:39] It does take a bit of practice for sure.

[00:36:43] The good news is there's lots of opportunity I've found every single day to practice it because there's always some kind of scenario that will lead to something else, and then you think, well, what's going to be the outcome of that? A great example is this weekend, you know, leading up to seven [00:37:00] o'clock yesterday.

[00:37:01] The amount of speculation over what was going to be said. You might as well just wait for to see what's going to be said. Otherwise, you'd tie yourself up in knots for two weeks, trying to figure out what the various permutations are likely to be, and you've still got a much higher chance of not working it out anyway, and you still have to wait to find out for sure.

[00:37:20] So you must free up your own mental space, uh, in the meantime and wait, and if it's, if it, if, if it's a scenario where it's out of your control. Is, I would suggest try and park it and think about and get back to doing something that's in the moment so that you're not dwelling because it's futile to not think of something.

[00:37:41] By definition you're going to be thinking of it. So you kind of, I dont  remember who it was that someone said, when you worry about something like describe a tree, cause you know you can't be describing a tree and not thinking about it. You know, and try not to think about something else at the same time.

[00:37:58] Hannah: [00:37:58] I think there's something, [00:38:00] um, your life is uncertain for ways it's uncertain, but we'd like to try and feel like we're in control.

[00:38:07] And I think with everything that's happening at the moment is suddenly just made it really obvious to people. Life's uncertain, and we're not a fan of that. Um, so we want to know what's going to happen, but actually if you can just be in, in the flow, it's kind of like just riding a wave. That you're just kind of responding to what happens.

[00:38:26] So you're not kind of clinging to certainty, or control in the same way. So I think when you can be more present, you can deal with uncertainty more because you're just responding to everything that comes up. And I think it is that kind of being too much in the expectations and how things should be.

[00:38:44] Then the uncertainty just kind of throws us. So we want the answers.

[00:38:49] David: [00:38:49] It's true. Yeah, it's true. I think, you know, been able to take that step back and view how you're thinking and feeling in a situation. And being able to assess is the [00:39:00] one thing that kind of separates us as humans from the other animals is be as have being able to actually, you know, perceive our own existence.

[00:39:09] Um, and so it's being able to develop that, those tools. Um, through, you know, meditation or any other kind of mindfulness techniques. Like you say, the can be, um, sport or art or those kinds of things I think makes, makes such a big difference. Any other advice you'd give to some, somebody who maybe is listening to this and thinking a bit like you did when you were on that course?

[00:39:34] Aha. I've, some of these things resonate with me. What would you say, what would you suggest to anyone in that position?

[00:39:42] Hannah: [00:39:42] Yeah. So I think there is a lot more information out there now that you can go to, and I tend to refer people to Mind. Their website has a lot of information or Rethink Mental illness somewhere like that if you're trying to figure out, is this explaining my experience?

[00:39:59] And [00:40:00] um, and they also have tips and advice on there. Um, I would absolutely recommend talking to someone. If you can, or finding a way to try and process what's going on for you. Um, and I think finding something like we can say about the kind of mindfulness or the exercise, there is a reason that these things keep coming up as suggestions that exercise the mindfulness.

[00:40:26] Because. They do actually help, but it's not a one size fits all thing. So some people love running and it helps. I'm not a runner, it's not for me. Um, so trying different things. Not just trying one thing once and then going, Oh, that didn't help. It's really, it's like a trial and error approach to find the thing that works for you.

[00:40:49] And it might be running or a seated meditation type thing, it might look different. Um, so just kind of trying, and I think the biggest thing is [00:41:00] knowing that. It's, it's not just you, you're not alone. And I think there's still a lot of shame around mental illness. Um, there's nothing that's like inherently wrong with you.

[00:41:15] It's just something that can happen in the same way a physical part of your body can have issues at times, and I think that can really help to kind of separate from that feeling of, of shame that actually there are other people who kind of get it, or who've been through it. Um, and that is kind of okay.

[00:41:38] It's quite normal actually to um to go through it. And I think that's a really powerful reminder because when you're in it, you just kind of feel so alone and sometimes, and then no one knows what you're going through or understands. And how am I going to get out with it? So, um, yeah, just remember that actually. [00:42:00] That's just your mind telling you that. And really other people have been through and you're not alone, and that there is help and support out there.

[00:42:07] David: [00:42:07] I think that's great advice. I think, um, definitely go and speak to speak to somebody. Just find somebody to speak to. Um, and don't be ashamed because. I think pretty much everybody will go through some kind of episode of some description in their life.

[00:42:25] I think it's impossible not to, there's so many external pressures. There's so many internal pressures that at some point you're not going to feel great either about yourself or about the situation that you're in. And it's important to find somebody to talk to and, and it, you know, we, we laugh about our mother saying everything will be okay.

[00:42:48] It will, you just might not want to hear that as the first thing that you hear. But, um, it's good to know that you can come through and, uh, but you do need to speak to people.

[00:42:59] Hannah: [00:42:59] And you might find [00:43:00] that when you reach out to someone and say, this is how I'm feeling. That they're feeling something similar or that they can relate to it.

[00:43:07] Um, I think part of depression, we almost become really like, um, self-centred because it's just you in your own little world and actually when you reach out, you might be surprised who has been through something similar.

[00:43:22] David: [00:43:22] That's great. It's been really good to talk to you. And you mentioned your podcast earlier.

[00:43:27] Let everybody know where they can find you. If they want to hear a bit more, that'd be great.

[00:43:32] Hannah: [00:43:32] Yeah, so my podcast. It's on iTunes and Spotify, and it's called the Psykhe mental wellbeing podcast. And it's Psykhe with a K rather than a C. Um, just because I'm awkward and it's the Greek goddess of like the soul and the spirit, and it's the root of the word psychology.

[00:43:49] And I. I quite liked that. And everything is symbolised. So it's an iTunes and Spotify, and we dive into mental wellbeing generally, but we also, [00:44:00] do episodes on specific mental illness experiences that people have gone through. So.

[00:44:06] David: [00:44:06] Brilliant, well, we'll make sure there's links to your podcast when this goes live. Uh, and thank you very much for giving up your time to come and speak to us. It's been really interesting and. Uh, hopefully we'll speak again in the not too distant future.

[00:44:20] Hannah: [00:44:20] Yeah. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

[00:44:22] David: [00:44:22] Oh, you're welcome. Hannah.

Denise Pike on How to Be Successful in Your Job  Search and Application (#010)

Denise Pike on How to Be Successful in Your Job Search and Application (#010)

May 14, 2020

A professional CV and LinkedIn profile are more important than ever. As the lock down starts to lift and businesses get up and running again, the job market will come back to life. Unfortunately, not all businesses will have survived these challenging times meaning there is likely to be more people seeking employment than ever before. It is therefore essential you give yourself the best possible chance of success from the start in a highly competitive market.

We spoke with Denise Pike from The CV Clinic about how she can help give you the best chance possible and some top tips for if you're currently planning on applying for a new role now.

How will you stand out in a competitive job market?

We recommend seeking the guidance and support of a professional CV writer such as Denise and The CV Clinic to ensure you can successfully navigate the automatic CV scanning software and show yourself in the best possible light. First impressions make all the difference so don't cut corners if you want that dream job!

Find out more about Denise and the services The CV Clinic provides at https://www.thecvclinic.co.uk/


[00:00:00] David: [00:00:00] Denise, welcome to the pocket mastermind podcast. How are you?

[00:00:18] Denise: [00:00:18] Hello. I'm good. Thank you. How are you?

[00:00:21] David: [00:00:21] I'm really good. I'm really good. Um, so you're the founder of CV Clinic. Can you tell us a bit about what the CV Clinic does, the services you provide, and then we'll talk to you a bit about the career path that you took to getting to that point?

[00:00:36] Denise: [00:00:36] Yeah, sure. Okay. So, um, the CV clinic is a CV writing and interview coaching service. Um, but there are a number of different services that I provide really depending on the client's needs. Um, so I kind of have a, a client led approach, really. Um, first of all, I kind of really want to [00:01:00] understand what the client's career objectives were and then work with them to help them understand what they can be doing to improve.

[00:01:07] The CV or their LinkedIn profile or their interview technique in order to help them reach their goals and really present themselves in the best way possible to potential employer.

[00:01:18] David: [00:01:18] How did you get to starting the CV Clinic? What was the career path that you took that led you to identifying that as, as a business that you wanted to set up?

[00:01:32] Denise: [00:01:32] Yeah. So I, I kind of fell into recruitment about 10 years ago. Um, it's funny, I think most people who have a career in recruitment did fall into it. I don't think it's usually something people set out to do. Um. So I actually started my career as a paralegal. Um, I wanted to be a lawyer and then quite quickly realized that it was a lot of paperwork and not really much exciting stuff.

[00:01:56] Um, so I actually started, um, in recruitment about 10 years [00:02:00] ago when I started recruiting lawyers because I had kind of legal background. Um, so I went to work for, um, a recruitment agency for a couple of years. Um, I'm also really enjoyed recruitment. I really enjoyed, um, kind of dealing with candidates my day to day basis.

[00:02:18] What I didn't enjoy so much is the sales and business development side of things. Um, so, um, I stayed there for a couple of years and then decided actually I'd really like to go and work for an in house recruitment or talent acquisition team. Um, so that I'm not focusing on sales and business development, Im really just focusing on recruitment for one particular organization.

[00:02:39] Um, so then I moved to a company called Newton Europe who are, um, theyre operational improvement consultants. And I looked after their graduate recruitment scheme there that took me to various universities, um, and gave me a really good insight into graduate recruitment last summer. Actually, I was made [00:03:00] redundant.

[00:03:00] And so I kind of found myself a bit of the crossroads wondering what to do next. Um, and then I kind of made the decision that actually now I'd quite like to do something on my own. Um, so at that point I decided to do some consulting. Um, and actually had a really good project with, um, the guide dogs for the blind, um, you know, an amazing charity to work for.

[00:03:24] They had lots of improvement projects that they needed help with. Um, so I went and did that and it was amazing. Um, now, alongside doing all of that, I was helping people, kind of family, friends, friends or friends with their CVs, with interview techniques and, um, started to realize that that was something I really, really enjoyed.

[00:03:48] Um, kind of get a real buzz from helping people and them coming back to you and saying. Denise, thank you so much. After speaking to you, I've got an interview and you know, I realized, you know what, I really enjoy doing this. [00:04:00] Um, so why don't I do this full time, and that was kind of where the idea of the CV Clinic came about.

[00:04:07] Um, I think, how has it been about September last year. Um, and yeah, then it kind of took off from them and then I decided to go for it full time in January this year. Um, which. You know, unfortunately in a challenging time in the last couple of months but, you know, I'm really, really glad that I did take the plunge.

[00:04:29] Um, and it's been such a learning curve for me since then.

[00:04:32] David: [00:04:32] What's been the biggest things you've learned in setting up the business for yourself?

[00:04:37] Denise: [00:04:37] You know what, I talked myself out of it so many times. Um, you know, one day I would think it was the best idea ever, and the next day I'd be like, what am I doing?

[00:04:46] This is so stupid. Just going to get a job. Um. I think, um, in terms of what I've learned, I think kind of the things that go into the business and how much hard work it is in terms of [00:05:00] marketing and connecting yourself with all of those things. I think I was a bit naive, um, and probably just thought, well, you know, we'll start this business and people will just come to me and that's how it's going to work.

[00:05:10] And obviously that isn't how it works. Um, and when I first started, you know, I tried to set up my website, for example. Um, and quickly realized that that wasn't going to work either. So, um, got some help from, um, an amazing lady called Harriet Smith who helped me. She kind of talked me through branding and tone of voice.

[00:05:33] How I really wanted to portray the business. Um, so that was a really, good learning curve for me. And, you know, just having that support from her. Um, you know, she'd say, you know, this is a great idea, I think you're going to do really well. Um, you know, having that support from other people and talking through your ideas with other people, I think has been really important because otherwise I think I would have just talked myself out of it.

[00:05:56] David: [00:05:56] And what's the experience been like? Obviously with everything that's going on at the [00:06:00] moment and a lot of recruitment seems to have dried up, what's it experience for yourself, for your business, but also the clients that you are dealing with? What are kind of some of the themes and things that are going on at the moment?

[00:06:16] Denise: [00:06:16] Yeah. So, you know, things have definitely slowed down for me, but I am still getting inquiries from people. Um, and mainly what they're saying is that, you know, they're, they're applying for jobs. They're reaching out to recruiters, um, and unfortunately they're just not hearing anything back. Um. It's really challenging because obviously these are kind of, everyone keeps saying it unprecedented times, but, um, I think it would be difficult when you're, you know, you're putting yourself out there and people just aren't responding to your calls or responding to emails.

[00:06:51] I think that's really the number one frustration from people that I'm speaking to. Mmm. But also, I think there [00:07:00] is a lack of awareness in terms of the recruitment process and how that works. Um, so, um, you know, I talk a lot about applicant tracking systems and how they can really affect your chances of success of your CV, kind of getting through and being seen by it by a person.

[00:07:19] Um, but a lot of people that I speak to, they're not even aware that those systems exist. Um, so I think one of the things I'm trying to use this kind of downtime for is to really help people as much as I can. And, um, you know, just, just help people, let them know about the system, let them know what simple changes they can make to try and get ahead.

[00:07:42] Um, yeah. And things like that really.

[00:07:45] David: [00:07:45] Is that seem simple? Things like, um, the format of CVs I think is one thing that I learned a while ago was you. You think, Oh, I'm going to make this nice looking creative CV, but actually the tracking systems just throw those [00:08:00] things out straight away. They tend to be a bit more of a simple format to get through those those systems.

[00:08:05] I think a lot of people are encouraged to kind of like stand out from it on a CV and actually can end up being detrimental.

[00:08:12] Denise: [00:08:12] They can. Yeah. I mean it's, I think it's good to have two versions so you can have that kind of fancy pants, creative version, um, and where you have got contacts, well, you know, you're emailing your CV directly to a person, then that works really well when you're, when you're into a position online via a system, like you say, it just throws it off.

[00:08:34] Um, we as a recruiter. Just to kind of give you an example of how it, how it works as a recruiter. You'd come in in the morning, you'd look at your inbox and you'd have hundreds of applications to sift very, um, and when somebody has used a fancy format for a CV through to you, and it's kind of just gobbledygook, the information is in all the wrong boxes and you can't really make sense of it.

[00:09:00] [00:09:00] Um. When you're a recruiter kind of juggling 20, 30, sometimes 40 live roles, and you just haven't got time to deal with that and you'll just go onto the next one. Um, so, so yeah, I'm just really trying to help people kind of get over these hurdles, um, and just make them aware, because like I say, I think with most people, they're just not aware that this is the case.

[00:09:21] David: [00:09:21] What are some of the areas where people, the usual traps that people fall into with, with the CVS, that could be, you know, simply changed?

[00:09:32] Denise: [00:09:32] Yeah. So the formatting is a big one. The second one is kind of. Not tailoring their CV to the application, or to the role that they're applying to. So as well as kind of, um, having a straightforward format, um, what you also need to do is ensure you're including some of the keywords and phrases contained in the job ad that in your CV, because one of the other things the applicant tracking system will do is scan your CV. And if it doesn't [00:10:00] match with the key words or phrases that he's looking for, then it will just reject it. So that's another kind of quick win, um, that you can do to make sure you're not failing there. Um, another, another kind of, um, quite common theme is that people tend to write their CV in a task based way rather than a results based way.

[00:10:23] And I think what this can unfortunately do is really downplay your experience and make you come across as a lot less experienced than you actually are. Um, and as a recruiter or a potential employer, what you're really looking for is kind of evidence of what this person has achieved in the past because that's a really good indicator of what they can, um, what value they can add to your business.

[00:10:45] Um. And again, that's quite a simple change. It's just kind of looking at the way you're writing things and rewording them. Um, and just making sure that you're getting down some actual results rather than just talking about, you [00:11:00] know, I managed this, um, I was responsible for X, Y, Z. You know, it's just, it's not making me stand out.

[00:11:07] Um, it's not making the reader, um, kind of inspired by you. Um, yeah, just I think changing it to more results based rather than task based.

[00:11:18] David: [00:11:18] I think it doesn't come naturally for a lot of people. And I think working with someone like yourself helps you to draw. You turn that, you turn that task into a result.

[00:11:30] And I think something that people sat by him. So it sounds like, yeah, turn into an end result, but I think that's where working with somebody really does add a lot of value because you can then talk about, well, what did you act, what was it, what was it, give us a specific example. It's a bit like an interview kind of practice, I guess, in a way.

[00:11:48] And you're able to then put down something meaningful. And I know from being a hiring manager. It ends up being, it does end up being a job description almost. And you say, well, yeah, so [00:12:00] what? And I think that's where the real value comes in.

[00:12:03] Steve: [00:12:03] What's the sort of, what's the sort of process, um, when it comes to speaking to you? Do they send, they send you their current CV for you to first of all, take a look at, or is it a case of. Having a job you want to apply for and then speaking to you about that.

[00:12:19] Denise: [00:12:19] The circumstances are different. Um, so some people might come to me and they've got a very clear idea of the kind of job they want, and they'll come to me with jobs that they've applied for and jobs they want to apply for.

[00:12:31] Some people come to me and they really haven't got a clue. They just know that they're unhappy and they want to do something different. Um, and sometimes people come to me and they haven't actually got a CV because they've been in the same job for so long, or they found jobs by knowing people and have never needed a CV before.

[00:12:50] So it really does vary from person to person. So what I, what I usually like to do is have a consultation with them, um, which is [00:13:00] usually about about an hour. Um, and it's really just an opportunity to have a more of an in depth look at their career history. Um, what they achieved. And it's funny because, um, like Dave said, people often find it quite difficult to talk about their achievements.

[00:13:15] Um, I think a lot of people feel like they're bragging or, you know, um, showing off. But, um, you know, actually it's really important because the value that you add is what people want to see. Um, but a lot of the time people, um, you know, when I asked them about the career and the things they've achieved, they'll say, well, you know, I was just doing my job.

[00:13:35] So that was just part of my job. And they really downplay their achievements. Um, or I don't recognize when something wasn't achievement. Um, and just by talking to them and spending that time, asking them the right questions, that's how I kind of manage to draw, draw that out from them. And often when we talk about that, we'll get to the end and there'll be like, wow, I'm actually quite impressed with myself. I've achieved a lot.

[00:13:58] Steve: [00:13:58] Thats [00:14:00] a nice feeling.

[00:14:01] Denise: [00:14:01] Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's, it's really nice. And, and oftentimes those people who, you know, aren't sure what they want to go on and do next can clearly see where their strengths lie. Um, and it will make them think about what they really enjoyed doing throughout their career, what they're really good at. Um, and that kind of helps them, um, understand what it is that they wants to fill in and do next.

[00:14:23] David: [00:14:23] It's quite challenging and stressful. Time. Right? You know, trying to, a career change or even just a job change. Quite often people have been in a company for quite a long period of time, and the thought of leaving the known is, is scary. So having, having that support, and I think most so many people try and do all of this themselves and we're not great at everything and we have to accept that we're not great at everything.

[00:14:49] And one area, you know, you get an opportunity effectively. You know, one at first impression with your CV and then you get your first impression in person or over [00:15:00] the phone, and you got to kind of make that count. And I think it's a very wise investment to get some support through that process to ensure that you're more successful.

[00:15:09] Because you know, we're in this time now, we know that a lot of businesses are under threat and it's likely to be a more competitive market. And I think. If you want to increase your chances of success, then you know, utilizing support in that area is going to be critical.

[00:15:29] Denise: [00:15:29] Yeah, definitely. And you know, recruitment processes do change quite a lot over time as well.

[00:15:36] So it's kind of keeping up to date with, with that. Um, and also, you know, CVs are really subjective. What will turn one hiring manager on, will turn another one off. So, um, you know, but I think. Because I have worked in various organizations and various talent acquisition teams. Um, you know, I've got really good insight into what most people are looking for.

[00:15:57] Um, and you know, I just really didn't want [00:16:00] them to be able to pass that on.

[00:16:01] David: [00:16:01] Have you got any other, um, kind of top tips and any other advice for anybody who is thinking about maybe changing role at the moment?

[00:16:13] Denise: [00:16:13] Yeah. So, um, like we've said, you know, it's difficult. It's a difficult time for job seekers and I think now more than ever, it's going to be really important for them to stand out, but also I think to be more strategic in their job search as well.

[00:16:31] Um, so, you know, when you're, when you're looking for jobs, sometimes it can be really tempting to just get out there and apply for as many jobs as possible. But you know, it really is quality over quantity. Um, so I've got a kind of job search strategy, structured template that I share with people, um, which kind of asks them some questions and helps them create a plan in terms of, um, what type of role they're going to look for, which organisations they're [00:17:00] going to approach, and how they're going to approach them.

[00:17:02] Um, so, you know, when we are in a difficult market like this, you can't really just sit back and wait for the jobs to be advertised. You need to be a bit more creative in how you're going about that. So, um, definitely, you know, be more strategic. Um, and think about how you're going to target those companies that you want to work for.

[00:17:23] David: [00:17:23] Really thinking about what you want to do next or, or even further down the line that you're not just panic applying, which I think a lot of people do fall into that trap for sure.

[00:17:34] Denise: [00:17:34] I think they do. And and as, as a recruiter or a hiring manager, it will be really obvious to you when you're getting an application through, when you're getting CVs through, it will be really obvious which ones have been tailored and which ones have just been kind of. Um, have taken the scatter gun approach and applied for everything. Um, you know, it, it will be obvious. So you do need to take that time to really tailor your [00:18:00] application each time.

[00:18:01] David: [00:18:01] What about things? So one of my favorite topics is a personal statements because they used to be my favorite bit as the hiring manager, personal statements can be.

[00:18:12] Um, quite interesting. And. Well, have you got any advice for people regarding good practice when it comes to personal statements?

[00:18:21] Denise: [00:18:21] Yeah, sure. So there was quite a good conversation and one of my LinkedIn posts the other day where someone had said, um, would you, would you suggest writing this in the first person or third person?

[00:18:37] Um. Now I have to say, I think the third person is really odd, and I'd never recommend anybody to write in the third person. I just think it, you know, you're talking about yourself so. Um, it just sounds a bit weird. Um, but I actually prefer to take all the pronouns out, so you're not talking about I, you're not talking about me.

[00:18:57] You're not talking about him. You're just making a [00:19:00] statement. And I think that helps it be firstly more concise. Um, but also a bit more it comes across a bit more professional, um, and, um, remove all the pronouns and just avoid adding kind of empty words, empty buzzwords, because they really do mean nothing.

[00:19:22] You know, hiring managers and recruiters, they've seen it all before. They know what means something and what doesn't. Um, so if you're going to make a statement, you really need to back it up with something quantifiable. So, you know, how many pounds did you save? How much time did you say? Um, these real quantifiable examples of what, uh, what's it going to help you stand out?

[00:19:44] David: [00:19:44] What about, um. Cover letters? Is that, would you offer cover letter in most circumstances, even if it's not requested?

[00:19:55] Denise: [00:19:55] That's a good question, actually. So, um, I think a lot of, a lot of companies [00:20:00] are requesting them alongside applications. Um. But if they're not, I think it's always a good idea to, to, um, submit one because it just gives you that opportunity to talk in a bit more detail about you and what it is you're looking for and why you would be a good fit for that company and for that position.

[00:20:20] And that is what makes a really good cover letter. Um, you know, all this stuff that you can't get into your CV. Um. And, but again, this has to be really tailored. So, you need to talk about the company, why it interests, you know, why your values match the company values, what value you can add. Um, so yeah, I definitely think that it's a good idea to do that but it has to be done right.

[00:20:44] David: [00:20:44] Not some blanket. Elevator pitch about yourself. Yeah, you're right. It does need to be tailored because whoever's reading that wants to know that you put some time and effort because that's what they're going to hire you for, right. Is there [00:21:00] a, you know, are you, are you going to be dedicated? Are you going to be, um, someone they can rely on? Some of they can trust, someone that's engaged. If the first thing they see from you is generic. It's not going to do you a great service and there'll be somebody else who has just put that extra five minutes in is going to make a big difference.

[00:21:22] Denise: [00:21:22] Absolutely. Yeah. You just, you know, you want to just put in maximum effort every time. Otherwise it's just not worth doing because it will just make you look bad. It was just mentioned that lazy and they will just move on to the next application.

[00:21:36] Steve: [00:21:36] Somebody told me once that you should take the job description that's there and take, take those bullet points of the job description and then put that into a word document and then see if you can answer each one of them with experience that you've had, and then put that into your covering letter so you can say what you're asking for is this, and these are my [00:22:00] experiences of all those things. Is a good thing to do?

[00:22:04] Denise: [00:22:04] Yeah, definitely. So that, that's kind of the approach that I take when I'm writing covering letters. And what you really want to do is make sure that you're evidencing everything that they're looking for. Um, because if you're not, then they're just going to move on. So yeah, that's a, that's a really good way to do it.

[00:22:21] So, yeah, one of the other services that I offer is LinkedIn profile optimization. Um, and you know, LinkedIn is so important these days. And as a recruiter, it was kind of the number one tool that I would use every day. I would use it to search for candidates, um, and I, you know, if when I had applications come through, I would check out the candidates profile on LinkedIn.

[00:22:46] Um, it's really key that as an active job seeker. Even as a passive job seeker, that your LinkedIn profile is really representing you in the best way possible. Um, but also that you're kind of [00:23:00] optimizing it so that you're showing up in the relevant searches. Um, so that's, that's really key. So that's what if the other other services that I provide, um, and, um, you know, I think sometimes people don't, don't really appreciate the relevance of LinkedIn.

[00:23:15] Um, but it, again, it can really help you stand out. Um, from, um, from the competition. So it's really key.

[00:23:23] David: [00:23:23] Oh yeah. I mean, the first thing we always used to do hiring when applicants come then is you, you do a search through LinkedIn, Facebook, anything that's going to say, well, who's this person really? And does it match the CV that I've just received?

[00:23:39] Because, and you know, there's many things you can do. LinkedIn, I think you're absolutely right. My LinkedIn wasn't great for a quite long period of time. And you do learn, there's quite a few things to, to change. The simple thing, like a photo, right? You don't have your Facebook picture on your [00:24:00] LinkedIn.

[00:24:00] Denise: [00:24:00] So yeah, if your profile picture is, um, is you drunk a wedding, you know, that's probably not appropriate. So this really needs to be representing you as a professional in your field. Um, but you know, you can be, you can be creative with it as well. So you can have your kind of, your LinkedIn banner, um, which he can make a bit more personal and say, you know, if you're looking for a marketing role, that could be your opportunity to kind of a show off some of your skills there. Um, so it's, yeah, really dependent on your industry, but, um, yeah, it's really important that it's up to date, that it definitely, um, correlates with your CV as well. But it doesn't need to be a kind of direct copy and paste of your CV. Obviously LinkedIn is social media. It's a public platform, so you wouldn't necessarily want all of that information, um, from your CV on your LinkedIn profile. So you do have to be more careful there.

[00:24:55] David: [00:24:55] And on the subject of other social, it's probably worthwhile taking if [00:25:00] you're applying for a role, taking a review of your other social channels, and maybe censoring or tidying up some stuff to make sure that there's nothing available that might not reflect you in the best light.

[00:25:17] Denise: [00:25:17] Yeah, yes, yeah. So when I, when I, um, have managed graduate schemes in the past, um, you know, we have had to have some difficult conversations with people, um, because of things we found on, on social media platforms.

[00:25:31] So. Um, yeah. It's just, yeah, definitely having a little bit of an audit and lock, it, just lock it down as much as possible. Um, you know, I don't even have my surname on my own social media channels because they really want to be found by anyone else. I, um, yeah, just make sure it's, it's not anything that's going to be incriminating.

[00:25:53] David: [00:25:53] Wise words. Where can people find you?

[00:25:58] Denise: [00:25:58] So people could find me [00:26:00] on LinkedIn is linkedin.com and it's Denise hyphen Pike, or my website is www.thecvclinic.co.uk. Um, I'm also on Facebook as The CV Clinic and Instagram as thecvclinic.co.uk.

[00:26:19] David: [00:26:19] Perfect. So if anyone's looking for some great advice on their next career move and how to be successful with their CV and with applications, um, suggest getting contact with you via those channels, we'll make sure we've got links to all of your social and to the website, etc, on our, on our website as well, so that people can find you quite easily if you're watching or listening to this.

[00:26:46] Denise: [00:26:46] Great. Cool. Thank you.

[00:26:48] David: [00:26:48] Really great stuff. It's been great to talk to you. [00:27:00]

Wayne Daniel on Rasing Over $250,000 in Under 8 Weeks (#009)

Wayne Daniel on Rasing Over $250,000 in Under 8 Weeks (#009)

May 8, 2020

Raise $250,000 in under 8 weeks? No problem!

That's just one of the success stories Wayne Daniel from WAYSU Marketing & PR talks to us about in this episode of the Pocket Mastermind podcast.

Wayne also shares his career path that led him to setting up his own Marketing and PR agency and how WAYSU uses a full-service model to deliver incredible results for their clients.

You can find out more and view details of case studies at https://waysu.co.uk/


[00:00:00] David: [00:00:00] Wayne, welcome to the Pocket Mastermind podcast. How are you?

[00:00:17] Wayne: [00:00:17] I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me, Dave.

[00:00:19] Welcome mate.

[00:00:21] So you're

[00:00:22] David: [00:00:22] the founder, director of WAYSU, Marketing and PR. Um, but before we get into talking about. What WAYSU does and how you do it and what makes you guys different. I want to take it back to the start of your career.

[00:00:36] How did you get into, you know, a career within marketing PR in the first place? What, what attracted you into that and what kind of, what route did you take from making that decision to kind of where you are now.

[00:00:50] Wayne: [00:00:50] Yeah. And so I guess I've been quite lucky. I'm during my A Levels. I decided that I wanted to either do psychology or [00:01:00] marketing psychology cause I was watching a lot of, um, Robbie Coltrane in Cracker and I was studying A Level and I was doing business studies at A Level as well.

[00:01:11] So I had a chat with her. Um. A good few people who had taken both routes and it seemed that psychology seemed to be a lot of statistics a lot of theory, a lot of real, real scientific work, which wasn't how I had perceived it. So, um, I quite liked to advertise in branding consumer behavior. So I then literally.

[00:01:34] Did, um, a degree in marketing at the university of central Lancashire where I met some of my best friends for life. So, um, I've been doing marketing for over 20 years now. Um, thankfully for me in the 3rd year doing the traditional milk round, um, I applied for six or seven graduate jobs. And one of those was with Vodafone on a kind of [00:02:00] innovative, um, graduate scheme, which was over two years.

[00:02:04] I thankfully managed to get onto that scheme and I've been working in marketing ever since, growing and evolving through what was, um, offline marketing to a broad based digital marketing platform now. So you've seen quite a big change in the industry since you first started from, I guess a lot of more.

[00:02:25] David: [00:02:25] And when you say offline, I assume a lot of that's kind of a

[00:02:27] Wayne: [00:02:27] paper based, newspaper

[00:02:28] David: [00:02:28] based stuff. Outdoor stuff.

[00:02:31] Wayne: [00:02:31] Yeah.

[00:02:31] David: [00:02:31] So digital stuff, right?

[00:02:34] Wayne: [00:02:34] Absolutely. So when I first started, um, leaflets door drops as we call them, DMs were a big thing. Um, but now as you know, you get so many of them for your door. The, the rate of take up is quite poor, but the cost of them is so cheap.

[00:02:50] Some companies still finding them delivering a return on investment. Um, and just in terms of the cycle of where I've come from, I was there at the inception of [00:03:00] marketing on mobile phones. So those first chunky WAP phones back in the day, the pre G a GPRS days, I was actually doing some marketing for Vodafone on those um devices.

[00:03:14] So yeah, it has really come full circle and it's, it's been a really interesting journey to be quite honest.

[00:03:21] David: [00:03:21] And how long were

[00:03:21] Wayne: [00:03:21] you a Voda for?

[00:03:24] Um, I was at Vodafone for four and a half years. Um, interestingly working across, um, B to B, B to C, and doing some account management stuff, but mainly working on handset marketing.

[00:03:39] So at my age, at the time, it was really a really exciting and pivotable pivotable time for me to be involved. So we were working on, and not just consumers, so cutting edge retail store, what the these phones actually do, but also how do we market to consumers who've just bought these [00:04:00] phones so that we can push our services to them.

[00:04:02] So it was really cutting edge stuff. Very interesting.

[00:04:06] David: [00:04:06] And then where did you go from Voda and what was the, what was the motivation for the change.

[00:04:12] Wayne: [00:04:12] Yeah. So, so there the couple of motivations. So I've always said I want to keep things fresh. So, um, I left Voda and went to do some contracting work, first to expand my knowledge base, um, and then I wound up working in financial services marketing.

[00:04:34] Which again, in terms of where I've got to today and owning my own business has been absolutely invaluable because financial services marketing is a completely different set of parameters in terms of the target audiences and what emotional triggers you're trying to obviously, um, attach yourself to, in terms of the market.

[00:04:53] And so it was all quite different in the approach. So, yeah. Um,

[00:05:00] [00:05:00] David: [00:05:00] What would you say the biggest things you learned from that change in industry were. How did that, how did that add to, you know, the skills that you now. You now have, you know, getting, you know, like you just said, a range, a range of experience from different categories, kind of building in towards how that's become valuable now . What do you think those key things were?

[00:05:21] Wayne: [00:05:21] So one of them is a hundred percent a longer sales cycle. So. You're not very impulsively buying financial services and identity theft protection, which is one of the market services that we were selling. It's not an impulsive decision, whereas mobile phones and some of these fast moving consumer goods that I've marketed since such time are impulse based.

[00:05:44] So it's looking at different triggers in consumer behavior. It's also made me a lot more process driven as well because anyone who works in banking and finance understands that there are quite a lot of milestones and processes and [00:06:00] legal departments and risk teams to work with. Before you can put things to market.

[00:06:06] Um, and also working with regulatory bodies to understand what you can and cannot say in your claims. So it matured me a lot in terms of, um, my approach to marketing. I can't say it was as fun because it wasn't.

[00:06:22] David: [00:06:22] I've worked in financial services as well. It's certainly not the most fun arena, sorry to anyone who's working in financial services. It's a little more restrictive than telecoms.

[00:06:32] Wayne: [00:06:32] Yeah, but you can make it fun. You can obviously put different angles to it, as you know, there's certain companies in the market such as Compare the Market, for example, who put a different spin. I'm sure Direct Line and a couple of others have put their own spin on it. So yeah, it doesn't have to be, you know, that's one of the things I've been trying to instill in WAYSU is to bring back some passion and some fun and enthusiasm into what can be quite an stayed [00:07:00] transactional based, um, process driven service.

[00:07:04] David: [00:07:04] And then so other steps then along the journey from, from that point to where you are now, what w what were some of the key decisions that you've felt that you feel you've made on that journey, and what were the drivers behind those decisions? Did you kind of, did you know you at some point you potentially wanted to set up on your own?

[00:07:26] Or is that something that's grown over the time that you've. Uh, been we working throughout your career?

[00:07:33] Wayne: [00:07:33] No, it's a, it's a good question. I guess for me, I, I came to a decision a good few years ago that I didn't want to manage within a corporate structure, a team of 10 to 20 people. If I was going to run a team of 10 to 20 people, I wanted to do it my way.

[00:07:53] I didn't want the macro environment pressures and the minutias of HR and those [00:08:00] kinds of pressures, um, impacting on the way that I ran my team. So I quite early on, um, found myself quite niche roles where I could control agencies instead. So I would work with creative agencies, design agencies.

[00:08:15] Customer service and teams, and I would work with them and I would manage them kind of in a dotted line through to my management team. That is a skill that I've been able to hone and they've evolve and is definitely helping me in what I now do today because I'm my own boss now, so I have various different stakeholders, so I've got to understand the nuances of managing them in different ways.

[00:08:40] David: [00:08:40] So, again, going back to the financial services, managing large stakeholders is probably been quite beneficial from that standpoint. And then, like you say, managing remote, you know, virtual colleagues, I guess you'd probably call them, uh, has also been quite pivotal. Um, what do you think are some of the, [00:09:00] the, the, the key roles that have really made the biggest difference to get to get you to a point where you felt comfortable.

[00:09:09] Wayne: [00:09:09] Yeah.

[00:09:10] David: [00:09:10] And starting out on your own really. I think some people might be thinking, I've been in it, I've been in a career doing whatever, maybe doing exactly what you're doing for 10 or 15 years or so, and maybe have an ambition to start a business, but haven't really known what the, what the right point is, when is it okay to do that? When's a good time to do that? And what would you say to anyone who's potentially in that position, you know, what, what was that experience like for you?

[00:09:41] Wayne: [00:09:41] So it's interesting. So there's two. There's two ways that I could answer that. First of all is when did it start to potentially click for me and the confidence levels of how this might be something that I could do is, interestingly, when I met you in the company that we were at Virgin Media, and I found that the [00:10:00] teams and the individuals that I was working with at Virgin Media.

[00:10:03] We're full of brilliant minds, motivated people, best in class. Superb at trying to generate change and affect change before then. Um, in some of my roles it hadn't been like that, so I learnt a lot from them so that it became quite natural to me to work in a different type of way. So I would say that, um, yeah, working with different people, you obviously you don't want to be the cleverest guy in the room, but you also don't want to be out of your depth.

[00:10:33] So it was good to have that really good mix of people and characters and personalities and within Virgin, and I bounced and learn from them. Um, what I would say as a. Nice. Um, elevation to that is when I started working, um, for, um, Yell, they, is a very structured process driven environment. So it was very [00:11:00] focused on the sales and the ROI and sweating the dollar, so to speak. And although as an employee, sometimes that can be a little bit grating and it can at times be a little bit intense. I learned a phenomenal amount in that process and doing that role, which now I'm running my own business and having to account for every penny that we spend, and every client penny that we spend.

[00:11:28] That has been absolutely invaluable. So it's vast experience as well that if I hadn't heard that. It would have been very difficult for me to just flip the switch, go from what can be seen sometimes as cozy corporate life. Sometimes it's easy to find that you can find the niche and like you said yourself, you can be there for 10, 15, 20 years.

[00:11:47] Before you know it, you're 55 with gray hair wondering what the hell happened to your life.

[00:11:52] David: [00:11:52] Or no hair!

[00:11:54]Wayne: [00:11:54] Yeah. Yeah. I can choose to shave mine.

[00:11:59] David: [00:11:59] I [00:12:00] could claim the same if I sat like this.

[00:12:03] Wayne: [00:12:03] So yes, I would say that those two roles was super pivotable. Um, for me, in terms of. Um, the people who I met and then the processes that were underpinning what I was doing, um, the second company, Yell. In terms of what that advice would be in towards people who might want to take this jump themselves is, I think you need to be honest.

[00:12:30] You need a few things. You need confidence in yourself and your abilities. This isn't something that you can wing. Yeah. This isn't football. The territory where you've got a natural home skill and you can just phone it in. You really do need to have a skill and a trade and be able to evolve that skill and that trade so that you don't get left behind.

[00:12:52] I think, um, if you can juggle initially anyway, um, the, what some people would call the [00:13:00] side hustle or the, uh, additional revenue stream or the learning to set up your business alongside the day job, that would be a key piece of advice that I would provide. Definitely that takes a lot of the pressure off and you can find your feet in your own time and you've also got that support network that I talked about in the Virgin Media days.

[00:13:22] You've got that support network of people, while you're still working, who you can pick their brains, you can get ideas from them and you can say, these are the types of things that gaps in the market that I found there. I'm looking to launch this product, et cetera, et cetera, or get some feedback and support from them.

[00:13:40] And then the third one I would say is, um. You've got to look at capital. There's an, there's no point jumping into this with no money behind you at all, because again, it's all about you don't want pressure. Um, a good friend of mine talked about the best way out of the rat race. Is to actually accumulate [00:14:00] some property or some revenue or some, some income to be able to sustain you for that first three to six months when you take the leap.

[00:14:08] So even if you've got a cracking idea, you've got to have something behind you. For example, who knew that this pandemic was coming. For example, or if there's going to be a recession or if God forbid you or your partner fall ill, or the people who you're working with, you fall out with. You know, these, these unknown dynamics can drastically change what was a great business idea or a great business premise that you had can quickly change.

[00:14:37] So you do need some capital behind you.

[00:14:40] David: [00:14:40] What are some of the, the general skills that you've either. Found that you had and grateful for having, or maybe some, some of the skills that you've then developed since setting up on your own. That you didn't necessarily consider maybe beforehand, but you'd probably suggest that the [00:15:00] general skills, you know, that might apply to anyone who started thinking about starting a business themselves.

[00:15:07] Wayne: [00:15:07] That's a really good question. And there are a good few skills. I'll get. Try and rattle off a few quite quickly without boring anyone. But that's a really good question. So one of those would be the art of delegation. So people are quite happy to say, yes, yes, yes, I'll take that on, I'll do that. Such and such client is a really good client.

[00:15:29] I'll do those eight things. Yes, that's a really good supplier. I'll do those 20 things. But you've got to be able to not just prioritise, but delegate to other people. So in terms of push back and say, well, if you can provide me with X, Y, and Z, I can deliver by the end of the week. Um, if I defer that down to one of my specialists, and then I look at it at the 80% stage, that is better for everyone involved than me trying to take it on in the initial stage.

[00:16:00] [00:16:00] And also when you're like having a meeting with your specialist in terms of empowering them. That's what you've employed them to do is crack on and nail this. Google, problem or this Facebook marketing task or this coding issue with a client's website. You've empowered them to do that. Let them get on.

[00:16:19] Don't try and own it all. So I'd say delegation is key. Um, one of the things that I like to think that I've got is being able to articulate myself in a very clear and simple way. And as a business owner, that's key key to picking up business key to ensuring that your suppliers, your contractors, the people that you work with, interpret exactly what you need them to do.

[00:16:46] There was nothing worse than, as a small business owner having a meeting with someone on the Friday thinking they understood what you thought, and then them delivering something back seven days later and it's completely missed the brief. We don't have the time as a small business to go [00:17:00] back to the start.

[00:17:01] So being very clear and articulate what you want, it's not a natural skill to some people, but if you can develop some of those skills. There's lots of videos on YouTube in terms of voice projection understanding, breathing as you talk. That kind of stuff. It really does help. Um, and then one that I'm particularly good at is Excel. So I've never, I've never gravitated towards accountancy, bookkeeping or anything like that, so I've had to be quite

[00:17:34] David: [00:17:34] The natural home of a marketeer of course.

[00:17:36] Wayne: [00:17:36] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, in terms of just the things from um splitting out, um, itemising invoices, bookkeeping for my accountant, that stuff doesn't come naturally to me.

[00:17:51] I'm. I doer, in the creative sense, in the account management sense, in the content creation sense and the [00:18:00] team building sense, but in terms of, um, finance and those financial disciplines, that is something that I've had to learn on the job. So, um, yeah, YouTube and as I said, friends and colleagues or your friends, utilise them where you can to, to their strengths.

[00:18:19] David: [00:18:19] And I guess things like, um. Outsourcing that you just mentioned, the accounts and that kind of stuff is don't try and do everything and too much because you know you get completely snowed under.

[00:18:33] Wayne: [00:18:33] Yeah. So it's funny you should say that. That's, that's one of the things that I'm keen to instill in what we do about WAYSU is lots of our clients try and do it at all.

[00:18:44] So they're doing a little bit of social media marketing. They're trying to handle the customer database. They're tinkering around with their own websites, sometimes in a quite reasonably effective manner. Sometimes horribly. Um, they're not looking at, say, customer [00:19:00] journeys. They're not looking at lead generation.

[00:19:03] And then you've got clients who try and make their own logos. You've got clients who think that they're quite witty and very, um, positive in the approach to their products and where it might work on one social media channel, such as Instagram, it falls flat on LinkedIn. So it's my job as a marketing agency owner to take that stream and to clear that path for our clients.

[00:19:34] So we have the initial consultation with the clients where we listen to them and it's done what their problems are. So it's. We've got no voice in the market, or we're looking to launch this product, or people come to our website and they leave without buying anything, that kind of thing. And then as you listen to them, you understand that they are literally trying to do 30 different things.

[00:19:58] Between them and two or [00:20:00] three of us stakeholders, which is an impossible, an impossible thing to do for a small to medium business. So again, that plays back to one, that delegation, but two, having that skill to know, right, I need to outsource these particular elements and I need to let an expert in and see what they can do, which works quite well in my respect.

[00:20:21] David: [00:20:21] I think. Obviously the aversion of a lot of these things when you're starting a business or running one is trying to find ways of trying to not spend money in certain areas. But there are certain things like, you know, lead generation for one, probably being the most important, you know, it's the start of the funnel.

[00:20:41] Getting people through the door is probably where you want to be investing the time and the money, um, and getting the experts in because, um it's all good and well having a great team of people ready to serve customers, but if there aren't any your business falls flat on its face, I guess it's probably, [00:21:00] this is a good opportunity then to transition into talking a bit about WAYSU.

[00:21:06] Really kind of, wait, wait, wait, wait, how you got started and then what you, what you kind of specialise in and some key tips for, for people, where there's probably a an opportunity to do something a bit a bit better and how you can add the value to the business.

[00:21:21] Wayne: [00:21:21] No. Perfect. So I guess from my perspective, what we found is that I was being more and more asked for advice.

[00:21:30] So within my day job, as I said, as I transitioned from, um, lots of newspaper radio. And DM physical advertising to start to get into digital marketing. More and more people would ask for advice because they understood that I was more of an innovator and I was for the businesses and the teams I was working on was on the cutting edge of what was happening.

[00:21:55] Um, one of the interesting things that I. Saw and has helped me [00:22:00] massively is marketing was sometimes back in the day, seen as quite, um, a superficial, um. Element business element. So people would make jokes about it as we colour, we colour things in, we do the pretty pictures and the finance guys and the product development guys.

[00:22:19] They're the guys who drive the business and yeah, I've got a friend of mine in my ear I can imagine now.

[00:22:24] David: [00:22:24] I know exactly who you're talking about. I may have made the jokes about the crayons.

[00:22:32] Wayne: [00:22:32] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what. Um, I found really changed that dynamic is Google and Facebook. And Amazon. So when people then started to realise that Facebook understood everything about you and the data being used on Google, then drove what you then returned in searches.

[00:22:56] And Amazon was then able to provide you from their [00:23:00] massive databanks provides you with marketed solutions for what you require, and people then didn't see it even as intrusive. It's like, okay, I understand that they know all about me, but they're now servicing my need. The role of the marketeer became a lot more.

[00:23:16] Sexy, a lot more relevant, a lot more cutting edge, and that then became a lot easier for marketers like myself to push ourselves forward, to get our voices heard in organisations, which were sales led, and then became more marketing then. So yeah, that's definitely one of the changes that I've seen in um industry and then the environment over the last 10 years.

[00:23:43] Um, in terms of what you were initially talking about in terms of how that change was made, so people were asking a lot of questions. People were saying, social media, I don't really know how to jump in and what channels to get involved in. Um, should I outsource building a website or should I go to Wix and [00:24:00] start trying to do on myself?

[00:24:02] Um, so I understood that there was a need. For specialists out there, and I didn't just want to be a gun for hire consultant who just added a little bit of information there on an hourly basis. I wanted to develop a kind of full service marketing agency so that for startups and entrepreneurs, small business owners who were like, I've got this amazing product and I have no idea how to bring it to market.

[00:24:29] I'm the innovator behind building it, but I don't know what to do with it next. I quite liked that idea and I quite liked using my experiences to help those businesses. Not going to say it's completely altruistic. You've got to pay the bills. But, um, everyone wants to do something in life that they enjoy and I quite enjoy tasks and challenges and logical problem solving. So, um, some clients come in with a Facebook conundrum or they're [00:25:00] looking in terms of the, as you were talking about, their lead funnel is completely dried up due to competitor entering the market. But they've still got the same product they had before and they've dropped their price, but they're still struggling.

[00:25:12] Then I like to help them using marketing strategy and marketing techniques to get back in the game. So yeah, that's definitely how I've come to set up my own agency. And then just finally, um, in terms of how this actually happened, um, as I've mentioned to a few people, I think I've got a piece about it on our actual website.

[00:25:36] Um, it was a conversation in a pub with a friend of a friend who came up to me and asked, and for my advice, he said, a friend that says that you're in, I'm leaving names out of all of you. So.

[00:25:53] A friend of a friend has said that you, you do digital marketing. I've got a really cool invention as an all in one [00:26:00] barbecue. I mean, it literally does everything from being a pizza oven. It's a smoker of fish. It does wok. It does a roast, it even has an internal kettle to make your tea and it's fantastic, but I can barely use WhatsApp.

[00:26:17] So I don't really know how to bring this to market, so I was like, okay, sounds incredibly interesting. I always listen to the client first. That's a hundred percent key. You're not trying to prescribe something to them immediately. You're trying to understand what are their objectives, what are they trying to get?

[00:26:34] What's their problem? So had a couple of conversations with him, was joined by his wife and it seemed like something I'd be quite interested in doing so during some very long weekends cause I'm a NightOwl. Um, I started working on what could be the proposition to bring this to market.

[00:26:54] It quickly then snowballed into a multi channel [00:27:00] marketing launch. His whole thing was he needed to make a certain amount of money, raise a certain amount of money so that he could tool up in China to get this product made. Because I am a digital marketing expert. And, my partner is a public relations expert. We were able to devise with one of our trusted specialists who we still use today and devise a marketing plan and strategy to bring that to market via YouTube, via Facebook, via instagram and via dedicated proper, um, prospect, email campaign to like minded people who would want this barbecue. So playing on the consumer market, but also going further a field and then looking at scout associations and, um, all sorts of outdoor orienteering type organizations here around in the U.S. And then the Far East who would be interested in [00:28:00] this, um, proposition.

[00:28:02] So that specific, um, product launch was what really got me into thinking, actually, I'd like to start doing this for myself as opposed to trying to juggle this as some kind of weekend activity. And that's how we started on the path.

[00:28:20] David: [00:28:20] And, um, so talk, are you able to talk a little bit more about the results of that.

[00:28:25] Wayne: [00:28:25] Yes.

[00:28:26] David: [00:28:26] That campaign. So I think that's really interesting. The fact that it's in multichannel coordinated, um, campaign probably, you know, for a lot of smaller businesses, start-up businesses isn't necessarily something that they, they think of and, maybe, you know, or they try and do it, like you've said before, try and do it themselves.

[00:28:45] It's not as easy as it seems to, to kind of try and coordinate that. Even trying to post on three social media channels in one goes hard work, nevermind create a coordinated campaign approach. So maybe talk to us a bit more [00:29:00] about how you, how you kind of executed that, what it looked like and then kind of some of the results you're able to drive.

[00:29:07] Wayne: [00:29:07] I know you're right, it is sometimes only when you talk about these things, you realise the Herculean challenges that were involved in actually bringing this to launch, considering as I've said, the digital, the inadequacies of the inventor, um, that I literally, with my team, had to do a lot of this ourselves.

[00:29:26] So there's a lot of planning and structure, which goes back to when I was working in the financial services sector, putting in place a plan that says, okay, we're going to do this in six stages. Stage one is what are we going to do? We're going to do a press release telling certain people that we're going to launch this.

[00:29:42] Okay. How do you do a press release? Right? Because my partner's a PR specialist. It was like, okay, you need a contact strategy. You need a little black book, or you need people who you're trying to target and tell them about your service or your product. Okay. Social media is going to be massive, but you then got [00:30:00] to understand what product or service you're selling,  and what market and platform that works on, so everyone knows now you've got everything from TiK Tok to Snapchat, to Instagram, to Facebook, to Twitter, to Reddit to YouTube, to LinkedIn. It's understanding which of those will work for the client. You're trying to sweat every dollar. You're trying to ensure that they're not wasting a thousand pounds going down a particular Avenue.

[00:30:28] Cause one, it impacts badly on you. And perception is about what you're trying to do for them. But also ultimately there is then less money for them to spend on marketing to get it right. So, um, we're quite methodical about the way that we do the planning. There's gotta be some test and learn and AB testing, as we all know, but there's got to be a planning process in place, which you've got to hand hold certain, um, clients through.

[00:30:54] So that is one of the key things that we did. Is the planning process. [00:31:00] Secondly, is skill up the team that you want on that project in the right way. So are you going to need someone to build a website and landing pages? If so, do you get someone in there who is design minded? So it looks aesthetically. Bob on.

[00:31:18] But also you then need the copywriter who can write the copy so that it's got SEO value so that it gets picked up by the right search engine algorithms. So there's a lot of elements behind building a campaign that, as I was saying to you earlier, clients sometimes don't understand when they try and do it all at once.

[00:31:37] So lots of processes, lots of putting people in the right places, putting together a plan and then presenting that plan back to the clients and them going, yeah, okay. I can see where the ROI is in that, because a lot of this marketing and kind of what we've got with the current pandemic is one of the first things that a lot of companies cut is marketing.

[00:32:00] [00:31:59] So you kind of trying to instill in them that it's not about likes and engaging um, comments from your audience. You're trying to generate leads or you're trying to build a lasting sentiment in the mind of the consumer that you are a brand who's credible than a prime that they should use. So there was quite a few elements that we pulled together anyway, as I was saying, you put together the plan, go through the plan with the client, and then we've got that phased approach.

[00:32:28] Here's what we're trying to do at the very beginning. Create some awareness. Okay. When you've created the awareness, what are you trying to do? Then? What are you trying to stimulate your consumer or your audience to? Do you want them to buy? Do you want them to go to a website? Do you want them to just fill out a form for now?

[00:32:45] Do you want them to tell you, tell their friends, or do you want them to come as what this particular activity was, is to go to a crowdfunding insight. What we wanted to do is we wanted to show them how amazing this product was and it's multi functional [00:33:00] capabilities and it's relatively cheap price point for all these things it could do, and then get them to go to the crowdfunding platform and say, I want a bit of that, I'll buy this. That then gave them a bigger pot of money that they would then be able to then use to do the tooling in China.

[00:33:18] So just to round that piece off, we were kind of given a challenge of generating 40,000 U.S. Dollars. Um, so they could do the tooling. The success of the digital marketing campaign that we generated enabled us to raise 250,000 U.S. Dollars in six and a half to eight weeks, and that was for us, that convinced me, one, this is exciting two we know what we're doing on the, we're on the right path. And three, it's quite, um. Good to then get the feedbacks from the clients, obviously, and understandably, this is worked. Can you do more of this? I'm [00:34:00] going to introduce you to a friend who they've got their own business and they are doing X, and then that's how these things can start to snowball.

[00:34:07] And it was quite exciting because we do. We use a professional to make a video, like a free minute video that we would then edit into different, um, editable bite-size consumables and for different channels. And then that would get picked up in random places like Japan or in Sydney. And they would then be talking about it on their blogs or on their Facebook user groups.

[00:34:34] And then we'd be getting back links to our, the client's landing page. Talking about this revolutionary only one barbecue. So obviously that then helps us in our marketing to understand there is a lot of power behind digital marketing. It's instantaneous as well. You can literally put something out there and it's not, it's quite [00:35:00] easy and cliche to say, Oh, something can go viral.

[00:35:02] It's what you want that viral to be. If you get a hundred thousand likes and ultimately you get two orders. It's gone viral, but it hasn't generated anything for you. Ultimately, if you get a hundred thousand orders and you can only service 20 you've got a very disappointed initial customer base and first impressions count and those customers won't come back.

[00:35:25] So it's putting together a very clever and nuanced marketing strategy and in channel tactics to make these things work.

[00:35:34] David: [00:35:34] I think is really interesting because. I think we're conditioned just in our personal lives that likes, likes are the thing, right. And I think that ends up getting carried over a lot of times into, into business.

[00:35:50] And you know, if you are a small business, you're not going to be an expert at everything, is not possible, right? But yet you kind of try and build in your own sales [00:36:00] funnel effectively is the case for, for many people, I think. And I think. Um, utilising the expert skills, like someone like yourself to actually build that strategy.

[00:36:12] What are you trying to achieve? What does the, what is the point of the funnel? Like you just said, is it filling in a form? Is it clicking an order? Is it going on to some other stage is absolutely essential for, for any business. And I think that's probably probably one of the gaps I see. Just in general, you know, when I see advertise a lot of advertising marketing around.

[00:36:34] Not really sure that the, the, the ad that you see matches what, I perceive the call to action to actually be, do you know, um, so it's quite, yeah, quite interesting. I think, um, more people should spend a bit more time thinking about what they actually want that funnel to look like. Any other areas that you see quite consistently?

[00:36:57] With kind of small, medium businesses [00:37:00] where you kind of gone, you've gone kind of gone in and made that, that difference. Does that make sense as a question?

[00:37:08] Wayne: [00:37:08] No, no. It's something that I'm quite passionate about, to be quite honest, is the data. So it's interesting and it's a complete opposite of me not being excited by Excel is.

[00:37:20] Actually understanding the data within your business. They're two completely different things. So I might go into a client who's got Google analytics set up for that website, but they've never looked at it and they wonder why no one is buying or converting on their website and their competitors are eating their lunch.

[00:37:39] So for me to be able to go into Google analytics and look at their visitor numbers, their traffic by day. Um, the bounce rate of people who come and immediately leave, where on the website they actually visit. Um, why are they not going to this page or this portal or his section? [00:38:00] What is the average time on site?

[00:38:02] Oh, you're saying they're only spending 20 seconds on your website, but they used to spend three minutes on your website. Have you not wondered why that might be. If you get into the data or you pay someone to get into the data, all of a sudden things can be a lot easier than pushing that boulder up the hill.

[00:38:20] So that's definitely something that I've found is that people either don't understand or take the time to understand the data. I then send them a few customised WAYSU reports, and you see the scales fall from their eyes as they realise where their customers are, where their prospects. Are going to and how they can convert more of them.

[00:38:42] And again, as a marketeer, that's quite exciting to see them then get back on the phone having received the presentation deck and go, that's amazing. I've seen more in this deck than I've seen, talked about my business from any expert in the last couple of years, and that's because we've gone into, it's not [00:39:00] just Google analytics.

[00:39:01] You can go into Google ad words and see what kind of ads they were um, previously, um, doing paid ads for, or even just going into their Instagram business account and seeing exactly what people are doing, what the demographics are of their Instagram base, um, what was getting, not just as many likes, but getting more impressions and then having them understand that, okay.

[00:39:27] Right. So that post did got 17 times more impressions than this one. How could that be? And then you start looking at the hashtags. You start looking at the words that they were using in the post. You start looking at, well, that's when you started using video clips as opposed to just static images.

[00:39:46] So yeah. It's all about the data. And that's one of the things that digital market and brings you. So not like with radio or newspaper advertising. It's quite hard to justify the [00:40:00] ROI sometimes, especially initially, but with digital marketing. It's where they can literally see what WAYSU is doing, they can see the money that WAYSU is spending for them, YouTube or Facebook or, um, through LinkedIn.

[00:40:16] And then they can see where their ROI is and where their cost per lead is.

[00:40:21] David: [00:40:21] And that's the, I think the interesting thing with digital is if you know what you're doing, you can save a fortune. And if you don't, you can definitely spend a fortune and end up with uh, no results. Right? Cause you know, an advert that doesn't actually have a clear call to action or it's not clear what the product is or the service is, or you've hit the wrong people.

[00:40:44] You ha, you know, the amount of the, the thing with Facebook and advertising in those kinds of platforms, very powerful if you know what you're doing. But a minefield, I think if you don't.

[00:40:56] Wayne: [00:40:56] Yeah. And unfortunately, um, [00:41:00] I was working with someone who thought they were helping by spending some of their own money as we were just starting to understand what they needed and what channels we were going to operate for in them.

[00:41:16] They started spending their own money trying to boost their own posts, and they spent a lot of money, unfortunately, and wasted a lot of money. Getting a hell of a lot of likes and a hell of a lot of engagement from people saying, this looks really cool, but it was not generating any form submissions, which is ultimately what they wanted.

[00:41:38] And that goes back to what I was originally saying that then harms the campaign, because if there's money being wasted, there's less money to spend in getting it right. Um, and then just just on that bit, cause you, you mentioned an interesting bit about them not knowing sometimes, um, at my old company Yell, one of the, one of the key things [00:42:00] was, is kind of, we do a certain job so that you can do your job.

[00:42:04] So for example, one of the analogies used was. We take care of the digital marketing so you can go up the ladder and fix people's roofs. It's that kind of philosophy that works really well as in, let us do our job. It's all very transparent because it's digital marketing, but let us do our jobs. Let us guide you along the way.

[00:42:28] We'll listen, we'll understand what you're trying to achieve, but then let us crack on and show you the results. Some of these results are not instantaneous. You can't just generate from zero to a hundred miles an hour in some channels. But we can show you the proof points that work and we can give you some nice little quick wins along the way.

[00:42:49] Because every website that I've looked at needs some form of optimisation. I mean literally we could together the three of us look at 10 websites now and we'd find different [00:43:00] things where we go, well, on mobile that looks ghastly on an Android, or I look at that on an iPhone and I don't really understand that.

[00:43:08] Or why is it seven clicks to do that way instead of two clicks, or I wouldn't really click on that website because they don't appear to have that little um lock at the top, which is the SSL certificate. They don't really have that. So I wouldn't really put my credit card details in there.

[00:43:24] So there were lots of elements that business owners, when they've got websites need to be doing to evolve and bring their website and their marketing to some extent into the current, um, environment.

[00:43:41] David: [00:43:41] And so probably brings us on to, if anyone wants to find you, where do they track you down Wayne?

[00:43:50] Wayne: [00:43:50] No. So, um, so obviously we are available at waysu.co.uk. Whiskey alpha Yankee, [00:44:00] Susie. Umbrella dot co dot UK, sometimes people spell it with a Z. So um, yeah, I just emphasise that. And we're also on all the available social channels. Um, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. Um, and I can be contacted on the phone as well on 0118 44992524.

[00:44:24] And what I always like to do is I'm happy to have a chat with anyone who is a business owner, or a startup. Understand a little bit about what they do from a market perspective. Then taking a phased approach with them, as in what do you need first? Everyone wants to generate more money first, but I'm trying to get some of those steps in place because maybe your website is really, really old.

[00:44:51] Or maybe you're just about to launch a product and you need to set those different channels up, or it might just be that the [00:45:00] competition is out there is really fierce. You've now been hit, right? A pandemic. So what are you going to be doing to differentiate and stand out in the market? So using lots of different elements to just come back to them with a two pronged approach. One, how can they make some money quickly? But two, how can we underpin it with some medium to long term principles, which will help them going forward over the next five to 10 years? People now understand even more than ever that they got to be in the digital space. People are spending a hell of a lot more time online at this moment in time on their phones.

[00:45:38] Glued to them, sat at home, bored when they're not on Netflix and on their laptop searching for whatever when they're not on Amazon. So it's been, it's taking your business in front of that now expanded audience and giving them something that elevates you above your competitors. So yeah, it's been beneficial in some [00:46:00] respects because you get a lot more inquiries and it's just how you convert those inquiries by providing sensible, rational plans.

[00:46:11] David: [00:46:11] And, um, you've obviously been used to work in, uh, remotely for quite a while anyway. So I guess, has there been much change for you in the way you operate? Fewer face to face, I suppose, but is there a fair amount of your, your client interaction I assume has been fairly remote anyway?

[00:46:32] Wayne: [00:46:32] Um yeah. As you've just said? Quite rightly, said. We've been quite lucky in the respect that I work from home permanently anyway, so we have an office here in our extended, um, house, which works really, really well for us. It gives me an enclosed space to crack on. Actually I have hosted clients here before cause we've got a massive screen and a technical, um, area here so I can take them through the presentations and we can go [00:47:00] through what competitors do on youTube. So it's all, it's all really good. But there's been less of those meetings due to the lockdown and my client meetings. Zoom has been absolutely invaluable. I was using it long before the um influx of new people to the platform, so that's been really great for me.

[00:47:19] Um, so yeah, nothing much has changed. We've obviously got, um, two children who are at home at the moment, so that creates it's own challenges. But less though, less so than for a lot of parents, because obviously we've done this before and because my partner works part time, she's able to help out in a lot more hands on manner that some people.

[00:47:43] David: [00:47:43] Quite fortunate in that regard.

[00:47:44]Wayne: [00:47:44] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:47:46] David: [00:47:46] It's been really interesting. Um, and thank you very much for giving up your time to share your story. I think, um, sharing the path that you've taken and some of the decisions that you've taken, and then [00:48:00] really sharing how each of those different roles have added skills to the bow that of may got you to a place where you're then able to set up on your own, I think is really helpful for, for anybody who is also, you know, following that path or at some point is thinking, I'd really love to go and do something for myself. And also, you know, obviously sharing the experience with WAYSU, it's itself and the skills that you can bring. And I'd highly recommend people, anyone listening now who's thinking we need a, we need to come up with a plan to get customers through the door, and particularly at a time like this, right. I think you touched on earlier. The first thing that a lot of places a lot of companies will cut is marketing spend.

[00:48:46] Wayne: [00:48:46] Yeah.

[00:48:47] David: [00:48:47] But if anything, you probably, that's probably where you need to maintain spend.

[00:48:51] You need to keep busy. It's very competitive, and there's lots of, you just touched on eyes on screens. It's a lot of flicking through, so you've got to, you've got to [00:49:00] come up with something that's meaningful and stand out. That's gonna make sure that actually this, this situation doesn't make a bad situation worse, because you're not playing in the game.

[00:49:10] Wayne: [00:49:10] Yeah. No. First of all, thank you for having me. I quite enjoyed um talking to you and Steve about what we do and just giving it a little bit of flavour about what digital marketing is and what it can be, um, in the market place. And yeah, as I was explaining before, I'm always open to a call to anyone who wants to discuss their existing marketing or how to take their marketing to the next level.

[00:49:38] And obviously we are a public relations agency as well. So also around content, contact strategies, content creation, um, press releases and all that kind of intrinsic um communication, focus strategy elements. We're really, really happy [00:50:00] to speak to businesses and individuals about that as well. I think that was one of the things that I want to get across from this is it's all about communication.

[00:50:09] Some people have got some fantastic ideas, but don't know how to execute them. It doesn't have to be as expensive or as, as painful or time consuming as you think. Sometimes it's literally about literally visiting the website. Uh. Dropping in inquiry, you'll actually see on our website, we've got, um, our products as a section, and then you can actually see, um, some of the case studies and some of the work that we've done with clients.

[00:50:39] Um, sorry, our work, you'll see that there's quite a few of the case studies and digital marketing activities and campaigns that we've done. So it kind of brings it to life for quite a few of the people that I've spoken to recently, when they actually go and have a look at our work on the website, they go, okay, so that's what you did for the [00:51:00] crowdfunding company.

[00:51:00] Okay. So that's how you would do a Facebook sponsored advertising campaign, which isn't just a couple of posts. This is what you would do in the space of developing an integrated marketing campaign across various channels, and it kind of brings it to life, Dave. So yeah, I would recommend having a look at our website and giving us a call.

[00:51:22] David: [00:51:22] Definitely. We've got links to your site and all of your social channels on our website. So if anyone watching this or listening to this wants to find you easily, we've got all of the links that they'll need.

[00:51:35]Wayne: [00:51:35] Perfect. Appreciate that.

[00:51:37] David: [00:51:37] Amazing. Cheers for your time Wayne.

[00:51:38] Wayne: [00:51:38] You too.

[00:51:40] David: [00:51:40] Bye

[00:51:41] Wayne: [00:51:41] Bye. [00:52:00]



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